Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Drone On Show. I'm Mike. This week we're going to have an interesting conversation with Josh Winroth from Pennsylvania, where he was set up by the Pennsylvania game wardens using his thermal drone to do deer recoveries.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: This is emerging technology. These are the things that are happening behind the scenes. The conversation is fascinating. You hear the full story of what Josh has been through the last 13 months. Some of this stuff actually is mind blowing. You don't want to miss it.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: It got Kevin fired up. There was one point I was reaching over to take his bubbler can because he was that fired up. You're not going to want to miss it. Let's get into it.
All right, guys, we got Josh on the podcast, and I believe you've been waiting to do this for a while to share your side of the story of how the. Do you call them game wardens or game commission people? What do you call those people that took your stuff?
[00:00:49] Speaker C: The game wardens? Pennsylvania Game Commission.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Yeah, the Pennsylvania Game Commission when they took your drone. There's a lot more to the story than what was being told.
This is your podcast. Let us know how. How this whole story unfolded. I'm sure me and Kevin and I'll pop up with questions at times. I'd love to hear how it all went down. Let's start with literally, the call. How'd they call you by the per. The hunter that was a game warden too, Right?
[00:01:16] Speaker C: Correct. Yeah. Undercover game warden. Obviously, I did not know that.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah, let's just address him as the undercover game warden slash hunter with his child that called you.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: Correct. So I got a phone call or voicemail that this gentleman had shot and killed a deer, believed to have killed a deer in gun season in pa and he said he had been looking for the deer. He found blood and hair, but could not find it. So every indication that this guy shot this, this deer legally, he. It was like 4 in the afternoon, so he had left a voicemail I was unable to answer at the time.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Were you on another recovery?
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Hopefully I was not, but I did call him back then or text him and let him know, hey, I'll give you a call in five minutes. I did call him back, spoke to him. I had some commitments right as it was getting dark, so I said I would be able to get there later in the evening, like 8 or 9 o' clock. He seemed to agree with it, and he said that, yeah, giving it a little bit of time wouldn't hurt anything. Like, that's kind of Standard, Standard practice. So I agreed to meet him at 9 o' clock at this location.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Did he give you a name?
[00:02:22] Speaker C: He did, yes.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: But did. Have you since found out, was that an actual name?
[00:02:26] Speaker C: That it was an undercover name.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Okay, Shock. So we can't be like, hey, John.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Yeah. No. And. And I will not disclose his actual name.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Oh, but you know, his actual name.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: Or his undercover name out of respect for him, I will not disclose that. And so I hope that.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Okay, so how you find out about his name, Was it through the court case?
[00:02:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: So they had to tell you?
[00:02:47] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Oh, interesting.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: So is he an actual game warden?
[00:02:52] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Oh, he is, yes. So is. That's not just his job is to do sting operations?
[00:02:57] Speaker C: Well, he's an undercover agent, so my understanding is that undercover operations are his. Like.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Okay, do we know how he got your phone number?
[00:03:06] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, there, there's.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Oh, I was hoping you say on the dronedorecovery.com website he very well could have.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: I do not know.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: To your knowledge, did he only target you or were there other drone operators that he targeted?
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Yeah, let's not get too steered off the. Let's hear the story first.
[00:03:23] Speaker C: I'll get back to that one. All right.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: There's so much. There's so much.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: So I prepared to go make the. Do the recovery. Recovery flight. I checked to make sure that we were able to fly there. I mean, I had asked him if it was on public private land because there is a statute in PA that you're not allowed to fly on state.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Game lands that's taking off and, and landing on. But I, I definitely can fly over top of it.
[00:03:47] Speaker C: Correct. They do not have jurisdiction. Correct. So I specifically asked that question. He said it's public land with access. So he had access to this, but it was not Game Commission land.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: So I checked to make sure that you're able to fly at this. At this location that he provided. There was no restrictions that were listed at that. That area. No temporary flight restrictions, any of that kind of stuff.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: So did he show you like a picture of the deer that he shot or.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: He did not.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: He didn't, no.
[00:04:14] Speaker C: And. And I ran quite a bit like with guys in gun season, not having a history.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's all right. I. I didn't know if he did or not at the time because this was so early, actually. Tell us, Was that in 2023?
[00:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So it was December of 2023.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Did you have him like sign something? Because back then, you know, we Were so early into. Into this technology, helping hunters. We were doing it in the beginning here in Ohio to protect ourselves, that they actually did shoot a deer.
[00:04:44] Speaker C: Right.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: And not just lying to try at that time.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: So I had a waiver he signed. There were like eight bullet points. One of them was I shot and believed to have killed a deer legally.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Wow. He signed that.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: So he did sign a waiver that no weapons would be present while anytime that I was on site.
That if we did find the deer to be alive, that he agreed that he would not pursue it until the following legal hunting day.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: All of these.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: All of these things were. I mean, this is initial and signed textbook.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: This is how you should do it. This is how it should have been done.
[00:05:19] Speaker C: There was no misconstruing the reason we were there. And it was all agreed upon, signed and whatnot. I mean, it was very clear to me that this guy had good intentions. It didn't seem mischievous or. Or anything like that. So.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah, when you showed up, he looked like a normal hunter dude.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean. Yeah.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Okay. Like this guy plays the. Is perfect for the. What is it called? Role.
[00:05:42] Speaker C: Right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, he played his. His role well, I'll give him that.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: So, hey, if you're watching our lesson.
[00:05:51] Speaker C: So he did have what he. I believe he called his nephew, which I found out later was an. Another undercover game warden.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: That is that young.
[00:06:03] Speaker C: I mean, he dressed. They act. They were acting.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: I mean, that's good.
[00:06:08] Speaker C: He was acting as if. In. No. No way do I mean this in a bad way. But he was acting as though he had special needs.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: The younger one.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Correct. Wow. Yeah.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: And that's the.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Do you have to screen record it? This conversation of you.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: Did you shoot was. But they confiscated the drone.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Did they delete the recording off.
[00:06:28] Speaker C: It was not there when I got it back.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Did you check the deleted file? Like, was the SD card there?
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Well, no, it was cleared. It went to the Pennsylvania State Police Crime dude.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: That is.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: And they scrubbed it.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Oh, frickin.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Because, guys, so when I asked him if he screen recorded. We've taught everybody. I would like to have everybody that's doing a deer recovery screen record because it captures audio and what the drone is seeing at the time. That is so baloney. That they were allowed to delete it because that was. That's your.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: That's tampering with evidence is what that is.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: Well, that's the thing. They would not. My attorney asked them to bring the drone into the courtroom and they refused to do so. And the judge said that that wasn't necessary.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: The whole case was about the drone.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Well, it was, but let's just say there was some bias.
I'll leave it at that. I don't want to get into too many details.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: So you show up, they do their act. You're like, okay, yep, I'm going to launch the drone.
[00:07:26] Speaker C: So we looked at a map. We were talking about where he was at, like, relative to where we were at, where the deer went. He described the direction it went from the. Where he shot it. So I get ready to launch. I launched the drone. We start going in the direction of where he said he shot the deer. We get close to where he had said he shot the deer, and there was a deer. We lit it up, we looked at it, and it was.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: You hit him with the zoom?
[00:07:51] Speaker C: With the zoom, yeah. It was a buck. The crazy part is that before I even looked at that deer, I saw another thermal. I said, hey, look like that looks like two deer. But here, the deer had stood up from the bed. So there was a bed there. And the deer. They tried to cite me for disturbing wildlife because they said, I got that deer to stand up out of the bed because of the drone.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Oh, geez.
[00:08:16] Speaker C: So, I mean, they were stretching for stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they just try and pile on citations to try and get you to plea to something.
That's their whole approach. Yeah, we saw the deer, and he's like, oh, no, that's not my buck. So I said, okay.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Did you have like a. Like a TV screen for him to look at or.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: I had the 24 inch monitor. So he goes, no, that's not my buck. I was like, okay. He's like, I think it was further down that direction. So I said, okay. Like, I mean, you know better than me. So I start going further into the direction that he said the buck was that he shot. As soon as I start going, two game warden trucks roll in from either side, lights flashing. No, no lights. Just pull in and block either side of the vehicle. So you can't. So I guess. So nobody could leave or whatever. As soon as they pull in, the undercover guy and his nephew get into their truck. It was an unmarked brown pickup truck. They get in their truck and they.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Leave without saying anything.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: That's when I knew.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: So trucks pull in. Josh has his drone still in the air. And you see these trucks, and you look over, and your client is walking away. You're not saying anything. You're just like, who is that?
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Or I said, Those look like game warden trucks because they had, like, the rack on the back. And he's like, well, what makes you think that? I was just like, I've seen a game warden before. I mean, it's like he doesn't say anything else. He gets in his truck and leaves. And I was like. As soon as that happened, I was like, this was a setup job.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:09:46] Speaker C: This was an absolute setup job.
What extent does somebody go to sign a waiver, clearly indicate the reason why they're there? And, like, that's.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Is that even legal? Isn't that called the honey pot? Like, undercover cops?
[00:09:59] Speaker C: Well, they. I mean, they can do fake, like, setups, but. But is this an. A necessity for something like this? I mean, hey, we're helping you save natural resources by not allowing a deer to go to waste.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah. The whole argument is, is that.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: Is that not in the Game Commission's best interest?
[00:10:18] Speaker A: The Game Commission has kind of had it in for Josh.
[00:10:21] Speaker C: I can't disclose that.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: You originally were charged as guilty. All counts, right?
[00:10:27] Speaker C: Yeah. So getting back a little bit to, like, what happened so the interaction then once the two game warden trucks pulled in, they said, what are you doing? I said, I'm here for a drone recovery flight. And I said, I have a waiver. Like, everything here, like, all this documentation or. No, I didn't even mention the waiver at that point. I just said, I'm here for a drone flight. They said, oh, well, that's illegal. I said, well, oh, that's a new position, because they had said on a recorded phone call back in November 2022, clearly that it was legal except for overstate game lands.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:03] Speaker C: I seek some. A legal opinion from an attorney. They provided me a legal opinion saying that they. They believed it to. There to be nothing wrong with drone being used for a recovery flight. Obviously not used to hunt. Those are two clearly different things. And he also said, not overstate game lands, which would be in adherence to the. The statute or the code that's in place. This new position now, all of a sudden, was in direct conflict with what they had previously said was legal on a phone call, a recorded phone call with the Game Commission on their central dispatch line, and a legal opinion from an independent attorney. So it was in direct conflict with both of those things. So I asked, well, when did this change? They couldn't provide an answer. I said, well, where did this new interpretation of the law come from? They couldn't answer that question. They just said it was from their superior. So they were hiding behind this guise of superior.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: So, D, at this point, you've already landed your drone, put it in the case. They took the case from you.
[00:12:02] Speaker C: I landed it, and I said, well, they were, like, telling me it was illegal. So I said, okay, that's fine. Like, go ahead. Like, you can issue me a citation. Like, we'll take care of it in court. Like, it's not a. Like it's fine. And so then they're like, oh, well, we're taking the drone. And I was like, yeah, no, that's not happening.
And so that's when they said, you can either give us the drone, or we will take you down to the magistrate's office and we will arrest you for impeding an investigation. Oh, wow. So they like to say that I willingly gave them the drone, but willingly was. They were giving me the alternative that they were going to arrest me for.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Impeding an investigation under threat of arrest is barely willingly.
[00:12:44] Speaker C: Exactly. And without getting into a lot of personal details, like, at the time, I was going through an adoption application. So the last thing you want to do when you're going through an adoption application is get arrested.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: So I know. I've heard suggestions. Oh, well, you should have just got arrested. Well, yeah, that wasn't exactly in the cards at the time.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Okay, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's. I had some guys tell me that through DMs and stuff. Like, he should have just. It's because we didn't know the full story.
[00:13:11] Speaker C: Right. So there's always a little bit more. Yeah, like, so that was definitely not something that I wanted to happen. So, I mean, I had nothing to hide. So I said, yeah, go for it. So they. They seized the drone. They did not issue any citations at the time. I'm pretty sure what they were trying to do is, oh, well, this is terrible. Like, he's flying looking for deer, hunting for people, hunting this and that. And when they got the drone and realized what was happening, I think they were like, oh, he's actually doing what. What.
What our undercover agents signed and whatnot. So it's like. So then at that point, they sat there with the drone for almost three weeks before they issued a citation.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: So your understanding is when they came out to stop you, they expected you to be behaving in a way that was more sketchy than how you had been.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: I don't know that as a fact, but I. My perception is that they were maybe hoping that that was the case. I have no idea.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: It would be more egregious like you would have been not playing it safe, following the rules and they would be able to kind of throw the book at you.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: Right, right. So once they realized that that was not the case, then they scrambled together for C4 citations to try because at that point they had seized my drone. So for the equivalent of what you would deem to be a parking ticket. Right, Yep. How many vehicles get confiscated for a simple parking ticket for 13 months?
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that probably none. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was three weeks before you had any kind of paperwork for the thirteen thousand dollar drone that had was confiscated.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: It was thirteen thousand at the time. Unfortunately, it's twenty two thousand now.
[00:14:50] Speaker C: Terrorists.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Let'S not get political.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: But wow. So that. Yeah, I had no idea.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: And so dissected.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Kevin, I'm just thinking, like, I'm thinking if you, if you have an adoption you're working through, I know how like that comes above all else. Like you, you have to protect that. And it makes sense why, you know, a night in jail is not that big of a deal or whatever, you know, like fight it. But it also makes sense from the Game Commission's perspective. If they let you go and they say we okay, actually no harm, no foul. It's almost them setting a precedent a little bit.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Well, yeah, so they went like nobody put them in this position but themselves.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Exactly right. And now they have.
[00:15:34] Speaker C: And this, this is a consistent theme throughout my whole case.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Their own worst enemy.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Like you said, there were other guys flying mpa like I don't currently still. Well, yeah, but other guys that trained with myself. With you guys.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: That actually had game wardens accompany them on flights. Not only do you have a phone call where you said it's legal except for overstate game lands in November of 2022, which preceded this case by a year and a month. But you also have game wardens accompanying flights.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And then now I remember when he called me.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: Now all of a sudden it's illegal and you're setting up a sting operation.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: And no official communication communicating a change of position during that lapse.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: Well, so there's another, another element here. So in October, there was a game warden that called me and left a voicemail to call him back because I had ran a print ad in the Lancaster Farming, like advertising the service in, in pa, Delaware and Maryland.
And so I called him back and he said, well, your, your advertisement is illegal. And so I said that was a new position. Right. Because what I had said before, like they had on the record, on the record Said it was legal except over Gamelands. And I had a legal opinion from an attorney saying that it wasn't legal or that it wasn't illegal. I mentioned those things to him. And so he said, okay, well, what, what, what's your attorney's name and phone number? So I provided my attorney's name, I provided my attorney's phone number. I then contacted my attorney and I said, hey, look, like I. This gentleman reached out and the attorney said, okay, I'll take care of it. Like, I gave him his information.
I thought nothing of it. I didn't get a call back. I never got an official warning from that game warden. I never got a call from my attorney. I never got a call back from him. So from what I believed was that they were in contact with each other or it wasn't. Or it was.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Or it wasn't a big deal.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly my point in the case. Then in court, they tried to say that his phone call to me was a warning.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Whereas he got the information from my attorney and acted as though he was going to call my attorney and heard nothing else of it.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: So do you know if the attorney ever called him? Did I. Not that he's.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: There's no record. There was no record of him.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: So I have a question for that first call you had on a recorded line from the Game Commission, where did that come from rank wise compared to the game warden that told you that you're not allowed to do it?
[00:18:01] Speaker C: I don't know exactly the title of the person on that call, but I do know that you're, you are recommend or they recommend that you call in for legal advice or for clarity on, on game laws and that stuff. And so my understanding is if they don't know the answer to a legal question, they won't give you a response because they don't want to mislead you. However, this response was clear as day. I have the, I have the recorded phone call now.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: I listen to it.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: And the crazy part is they, throughout my case, they tried to hide that phone call because it undermined their whole case.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: When you say they tried to hide it, what, what do you mean by that?
[00:18:40] Speaker C: The, the, the way that it's a public record. Right. So if you call in to the Game Commission, they're there as they're not. Well, they're like a state agency, Right?
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah. We should talk about that.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: That's kind of.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Because Josh, you dove into this and figured out how they all got started. So, so let's remember that.
[00:18:58] Speaker C: So. Because it's a call into a state agency or what? What's acting as a state? A law enforcement agency for the state, the game and fish law. That is public record. Right. So you can make a request for any of those calls. We made a request In January of 2020, January of 2024, following them seizing the drone at the end of 2023, it was like January 4th or something like that. We. There was a right to no request made for that November 2022 call. They came back within a day or two and said, that call doesn't or. We do not have a record that exists for that call. So it was almost immediately. So it was like, okay, like they're going to play this game.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: It's so messed up.
[00:19:41] Speaker C: We then subsequently. So my magistrate appearance or trial in the magistrate court, which is like the lower court, a lot of what they process are like parking tickets, like speeding tickets, like all that kind of stuff. We subpoenaed that record. They had to provide that. The record of that call, that specific number, that time, that call duration. We had a Verizon bill with that detail on, with the phone number, with the phone number of the central dispatch number. So if you call that number on that Verizon bill, it would go right to this phone call is recorded. It's the Game Commission saying these phone calls are recorded or can be recorded. We requested that. Or we got a subpoena issued for that record for the magistrate Court office. So at that point in time, both the Game Commission and the Lancaster County District Attorney's office, who was prosecuting the case on their behalf, they were made aware of that call record. They got that subpoena. So there's no way that they can put their head in the sand and say they had no idea that that call record existed because that paperwork was sent to them.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: Why does this sound so.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: This sounds third world country. Like, this kind of corruption is crazy.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: You grew up in.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah. But you shouldn't have to deal with that in the U.S. so. So a question.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: So, well, how much of this goes on?
[00:21:03] Speaker C: Well, that's that. And that's the whole reason why now my case is done. Right. But my whole issue now is where does accountability lie and how do I push forward and not allow this to happen to somebody else?
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. Because how often has it happened?
[00:21:19] Speaker C: I don't know. Gee.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Okay, so that call specifically, you can prove that it happened, right? Verizon records.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: But did they have to produce the recording from their end?
[00:21:28] Speaker C: First, they said the call record did not exist on the January 2024 right to no request. But then. So in the magistrate's office, it did not come up. We needed somebody to testify or to be able to bring that call record up in court. However, in the magistrate's office or a magistrate district court, that's not a court of record. So there was fear of retaliation from the Game Commission, and that's why that person would not testify.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: So the recording exists, but the court cannot find force it to be produced unless somebody testifies who will not testify because they know that they're going to.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: Get fear of retribution from the game.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: How effed up is that?
[00:22:09] Speaker C: I don't want to get into.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: I'm kind of pissed off right now.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Well, you should be.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: And you've been in this for 13 months, battling this BS, right?
[00:22:16] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: That is straight up.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Well, so for 13 months for a case where in November of 2022, they said it's ill, it's legal, except for over game.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yep. So did you ever make them produce the phone call?
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that's what was the case.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Yes. Not necessarily one, but got it thrown out.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: You know what? Honestly, Josh, I. I kind of hate to say this, but I was. I'm glad it was you because you were like, I'm fighting this. And we needed somebody like that, like, to push the Game Commission. And through it, you learned a lot of stuff that now could potentially.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: Right.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Help other people.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: Right.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: So I appreciate you, like, fighting it.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Took one for the industry is what happened.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: Yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: So we can't say how did you make them produce?
[00:23:00] Speaker B: I'm dying to.
[00:23:03] Speaker C: I'll get to that. It's so it's kind of a timeline. So in the magistrate's office, magistrate judge or the district or district judge said he upheld the charges. Right. He even said in. At the end, he's like, well, both sides have made, like, strong arguments, but I'm upholding the charges.
And he said specifically that legislators need to address drones in the state of Pennsylvania. So he said, like, in his ruling, he upheld the charges, but he said it needs to be addressed by the state senators or state representatives. Then I appealed that ruling to the Lancaster County Court Court of Appeals. That is then a court of record. Right. So you're actually sitting in front of a judge. You're actually going to the county courthouse. I filed the appeal. The appeal got scheduled for September of last year. Ironically, the beginning of the week, it was scheduled for a Thursday. On a Monday, Senator Coleman initially introduced his bill in the state of Pennsylvania to legalize drone use for recovery. He introduced it on a Monday. I had court on a Thursday, and within a couple hours of Senator Coleman releasing or introducing that bill, the Game Commission sought a delay in my case.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Did you know Senator Coleman?
[00:24:21] Speaker C: I've spoke to him, yeah.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah. But, like, who got him to initiate, like, let's write a bill.
[00:24:27] Speaker C: So he saw. I mean, he was following you guys. He saw the legislation in Illinois and was like, wow, that's crazy.
Like, you can find it, but you can't tell anybody where it's at. So Senator Coleman saw that. He saw some of the stuff that was coming out about my case, and he has a pilot's background, so he was intrigued by the. The industry and whatnot. So, yeah. So Senator Coleman has. He introduced a bill. And so within a couple hours of that, of that bill being introduced, they sought for a delay in my case. And they said they're. They said their witnesses were unavailable even though they knew about this case for. Or that trial date for months.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: That had been on the schedule already for months.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Why do you think it was delayed? Because I don't understand why they would delay it just because a bill has been introduced.
[00:25:17] Speaker C: Well, they probably wanted to see what was in the bill. I mean, it's hard to speculate exactly what their thought process is, but ironically, they delayed it from September until middle of January over deer season.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: So it's maximum pain.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: Well, they were still holding. They were still holding.
So despite them having no jurisdiction in other states where it is legal, they were still holding the drone.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:42] Speaker C: To try and, I don't know, prevent me from being able to use it. I don't know.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: But you said, no, no, no gain commission. I need an M350.
And you went out, bought another one, and you were doing so.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: I had a contract to do a herd analysis in February of 24. At that point, I had to decide, okay, well, am I seizing operations or am I continuing to move forward? So, I mean, obviously it was a heavy decision to have to make in a forced decision. Thank you, Game Commission.
I mean, I made the decision that, like, I was not going to be deterred by what they did to me. That was kind of my thought process for you.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: It seems like, you know, vendetta, not vendetta. We can talk our opinions, and it would feel like if somebody is. Sees something on the schedule for September, but they're going to delay it until January. It seems like it could be a case that they realize is becoming more and more unwinnable, they have little chance for Winning. But let's create maximum pain by holding your drone another three months over the next season.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: Well, I think there's smart people in the Lancaster County District's attorney office and in the Game Commission. I don't mean to. I'm not saying they're not smart. Like, I'm not undermining anything there. I think they thought they have a winnable case, and very much so. I mean, you don't prosecute a case unless you think you have a winnable case.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: You do if you want.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Kevin differs.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: I mean, wouldn't you like. I'll prosecute you, throw everything at you because I'll create so much pain that you'll settle. Well, I mean, isn't that.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: I mean, that. They do. That's the approach. But at the end of the day, if. If you don't take a plea deal, they still have to get the. They have to see the case through the system. Oh, I forgot that. I forgot to mention, like, in the.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: District, this is something you can share.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: Yeah. So they went so far to try and get my case process or see my case through to say that you cannot recover a downed deer after dark.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, we made a whole spiel.
[00:27:36] Speaker C: I know, but they went that far. That's how far they were willing to go to try and prosecute my case.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: What was that?
We pulled a clip. You sent it to me. There's like. I think they were looking for funding, maybe, and the guy was questioning him.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: It was this state appropriations hearing, and it was the act, or the executive director said. Oh, well, that's. He was blaming the. He was blaming the legislators. Yeah, well, that's the way the law is written.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah, but then that guy ended up getting fired or resigned.
[00:28:06] Speaker C: Yes. So.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: So that's just a nice way of saying that he kind of.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: Why did he resign?
[00:28:10] Speaker C: I. I don't think it had anything to do.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Oh, you don't think so?
[00:28:13] Speaker C: No. He was running a side business while he was working.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: This is. Okay, so he's part of the game Commission.
[00:28:19] Speaker C: Well, he was. Yeah.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Running a side gig. Very lucrative side gig.
[00:28:22] Speaker C: Well, he was.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. But what. What. What was it? I want to know.
[00:28:26] Speaker C: It was.
It was like leadership training or something like that.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: How did you find out about this?
[00:28:33] Speaker C: Public record.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: They. They questioned him on it, and he.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: He resigned.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Because it's either that or get fired.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: I very well could be. I. I don't. I don't know the details.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: Did the guy who said, we don't have a. A record of this call did he get in trouble for lying that we're getting. I need to know the answer to this.
[00:28:53] Speaker C: So we then we had subpoenaed that record for that phone call in district or the magistrate court level. We then also issued a subpoena at the appeals court level, so at the county courthouse.
So there were two subpoenas issued for this same call record. So not only were they made aware of this call or made aware that we wanted this record once, but it was done twice.
So for them to say that, for the Game Commission to say that they were unaware of this record or this record didn't exist, and for the Lancaster County District Attorney to say, oh, well, we were only aware of that call record when we got to court in January of 2025. They were made aware of it twice by way of subpoena. And like I said before, like, I don't think anybody in the district attorney's office is not smart. I don't think anybody in the Game Commission is not smart. I think there's willingness here as to not. I hate to use the word cover up, but be.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Not. Be very diligent in how we search for it.
[00:29:50] Speaker C: Like, if I'm a district attorney and the defense is asking for a record, I think going into the courthouse, I'm going to know what that record is. I'm going to know what that phone call or what's being subpoenaed is. Right. Because I don't want to be surprised.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: In court and my job and not.
[00:30:07] Speaker C: Know what it is.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. My job is to have the guilty charge, you know, placed on you. So I better know everything about this.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:30:14] Speaker C: And so if I'm going into court and I don't know what. What's being asked. Asked for by the defense. And they've asked for it twice now, like, do. Am I unprepared as a district attorney?
[00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you're bad at your job or it's intentional.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: Exactly. And I don't think anybody there is not smart and good at their job. So you can. You can read between the lines there.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: So in that appeals court, you forced them to produce a phone call. Right on the record.
[00:30:39] Speaker C: So we went into the case. We went into that, into the case at the county courthouse, expecting them to say what they had already said in January of 2024, that no record exists. However, in court, that person testified that we said was a. Well, fearful of retribution from the Game Commission.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Testified on the record.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: On the record. And also then that made. That made their records custodian have to.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: Have to testify, testified that it did happen and there is a record of it.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Correct. And then the records custodian then had to get on, was testifying for the Game Commission, and they had to produce that record. And so he got on a zoom call. They admitted that, oh, yeah, the record exists. He held up a white envelope. It's right here. So they were under oath. They were under oath in court. So if they lied about it not existing in court.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Okay. So you have a right as an American citizen, citizen of Pennsylvania, to have this call produced, whether you're in some kind of legal battle or not.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Right.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: It's the right of every American public record.
[00:31:47] Speaker C: So it's.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: And that right, like, you had those rights taken away from you, like, and it was only by having somebody who worked in the Game Commission testify that it happened that your rights were actually exercised.
[00:32:00] Speaker C: Right. So we knew this call existed, and so we continued to try and get a hold of it. Yeah.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: Try to get it.
[00:32:06] Speaker C: We used the court and the subpoena power of the court to get them to produce this record. And if they would have lied about it not existing, they would have been lying about it under oath.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Okay. So they can lie about it with no consequence in the lower court, because it's not under record and under oath. But if they repeat the same lie in the appeals court, then now there's some kind of on the record consequence, is that correct?
[00:32:30] Speaker C: Well, it can get pretty dicey. But they testified saying that they had the record. They couldn't figure out how to play it.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: So that, that's. But that's. That's what happened in court. And so my attorney was like, what's going on here?
[00:32:46] Speaker A: Like, yeah.
[00:32:46] Speaker C: And so this call record and the person that testified about it said exactly what was on the call, said he's like, well, this is potential exculpatory evidence for defendant.
So they have a right to. They have to provide that without a subpoena, they are legally obligated to provide potentially exculpatory evidence without it even being subpoenaed. So they were already in conflict of what they were supposed to be doing. And that's the reason the judge threw the case out, because.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Okay, but please tell me that the guy who lied, whoever, please tell me he got in trouble.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: Well, I don't know. That's the thing. So.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: So we don't know who is the guy that for sure lied. We can speculate that maybe it was one or two or three people.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: We don't know that's the thing.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: But do we know that they acted in bad faith?
[00:33:35] Speaker C: There's definite ethical issues involved in this case.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: At the bare minimum, is there some kind of consequence, like, are you taking this further or is it like they dismiss charges and it's done?
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Well, it'd be a whole different case if you were to open the.
[00:33:49] Speaker C: If I were to go after them, yeah, yeah. That would be a completely different case. But the thing that I want most is accountability. Like, this is something that cannot happen. I don't want this to happen to anybody else.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: It is not only happening to you. Right, right. It doesn't happen that orchestrated and that widespread without it being more commonplace than one time it happened to a guy named Josh. Never again did it happen.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: But my biggest concern is that this is going away. Right. The case got dismissed. They're trying to brush it under the rug. They're blaming it on the, the operator or whomever was on that call in November of 2022. They're saying that, oh, well, he misspoke and said the wrong thing. Well, my concern or, or my irritation with that response is they're not addressing the issue here. The issue is the COVID up after that call, not necessarily that call itself.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Oh, 100%.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:37] Speaker C: Because, yeah, if that guy made a mistake, hey, I'm willing to be like, okay, like, people make mistakes. Yeah, people make mistakes.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: So what you have is game wardens using some kind of power, like the whole thing from the beginning, covert operation to do something. Lying, you know, signing a waiver, signing a name, the whole thing. Lying, misrepresenting the service that you were out there providing and then covering up phone calls, deleting stuff on the day.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Yeah, they lied multiple times.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: The whole thing is screwed up. The whole game. Like, like this behavior is not one person inside of Game Commission.
[00:35:09] Speaker C: It's a culture.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: It's a culture.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about that. Tell me how Pennsylvania Game Commission become what they are. Because they're not. They're not appointed. Right.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: I don't know about this. I don't, I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:35:22] Speaker A: Well, no, this is where, this is where you're going to find out.
[00:35:25] Speaker C: So the way that the Pennsylvania Game Commission came about is a commission of people requested that the state recognize them as a body that oversees the game and fish code or conservation in the state of Pennsylvania. So they're independent from the state, they're non tax funded.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: I have questions.
[00:35:48] Speaker C: I know.
[00:35:49] Speaker A: That's why it's so interesting.
[00:35:50] Speaker C: They're non tax funded.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:35:53] Speaker C: So they, they operate on the revenue from license sales, a lot of money from gas and oil or gas and gas rights in PA on state game lands. So they're making a ton of money from that. And they also get federal funding. Right. So they do not have the same accountability to taxpayers as what the state police have or like what other agency? State agencies.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Okay, so just so I understand what you're saying and how long ago was this was the Game Commission forum?
[00:36:25] Speaker C: It was a long time ago.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: I'll use, yeah, I'll use Grok. Go ahead.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: So at some time ago, a group of unaffiliated private citizens, unaffiliated with the government requested the state government to grant them powers to oversee state game wildlife lands.
[00:36:42] Speaker C: Well, so state game and fish laws.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: So game, state and fish laws.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: So they have law enforcement rights over the game and fish halls. You want to know something other that's crazy is that there are actually two other agencies in the state of Pennsylvania that have the same law enforcement rights. It's the Fish Commission and dcnr. So you have three organizations within the state that oversee or have law enforcement rights for the same game and fish codes.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Is this not the normal way that game commissions operate like in the state of Ohio? How would the Game Commission operate? Part of the government. Part of state government, correct?
[00:37:19] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean it's a tax funded organization that is accountable to taxpayers. Right.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: So how does this look different from an accountability perspective? Like the head of the Game Commission, who does, who is he accountable for and how does that accountability flow?
[00:37:33] Speaker C: So they, the Game Commission loosely reports to the state legislators. Accountability comes from the state legislators, Right.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: How would that be different than how it's set up in Ohio, for example, or in a state where it's not set up that way?
[00:37:47] Speaker C: For example, like I know Texas, for example. So state troopers in the state of Texas also oversee the game and fish code. Like for example, I mean state organizations have internal affairs units, right? So if there's, if there's some sort of investigation needed for accountability, that's done within a state organization. However, the PA Game Commission is an independent, non tax funded organization.
What accountability is there for this kind of misconduct?
[00:38:14] Speaker B: That's what I want to know.
[00:38:15] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: You don't?
[00:38:16] Speaker C: We don't, we don't know. Nobody knows.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: So.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Because if I, I mean, for example, I still don't know if anybody or who's been held accountable for what happened in my case. Right.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: And let's be honest, there's very Little evidence that anyone is being held accountable in any way whatsoever.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: There's nothing that would make you believe that after here in this case?
[00:38:37] Speaker C: No.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: So hearing all this, can I just chime in? It sounds like this costs a lot of money. Did the state end up having to pay for any of this because it was thrown out the attorney, like, the attorney and court costs and.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: No. So, I mean, it's. It got dismissed, so there was, like, no ruling over anything. So, I mean, that.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: So you had to absorb all the costs.
[00:38:59] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, for. Yeah.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Your attorney.
[00:39:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So obviously it had detrimental financial impact, personal impact. Like, all of these things negatively. Were negatively impacted over a case that should have never come about and that.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Would have been thrown out much earlier had they not lied about.
[00:39:17] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Producing evidence. So how much are you in, like, all in legal costs?
[00:39:21] Speaker C: I can't disclose that.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: It's more than 10,000 bucks.
Can't say.
[00:39:26] Speaker C: I can't say.
[00:39:27] Speaker A: It's not over 100,000.
[00:39:29] Speaker C: No, no, but it's over 10, so.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:39:32] Speaker C: So. But I mean, like, the problem here is that they tried to bury this.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:38] Speaker C: To see the case through. And like, the thing is, I mean, they had every opportunity. Like, there were numerous times where they were made aware of this phone call where they said. And not one time did they take that. Did it. Does it appear that they took the time to listen to actual phone call and be like, oh, man, this.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, we screwed up.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: This completely undermines our whole position and everything that we're prosecuting this guy for.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Is your experience with the PA Game Wildlife Commission, is that, like, if you talk to a Pennsylvanian hunter, do they generally have, like, is, I hate to.
[00:40:09] Speaker C: Paint with a broad brush. Right. Like, there are good people and people that are ethical and doing the right thing that work at the Game Commission?
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah, there's. There's definitely good guys there.
[00:40:19] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: Remember, you and I were talking back when this case was going on. If I could have just produced that phone call from one of the Game Commission that actually works on a game cushion. He called me my first year when I was doing deer recovery and wanted me to come to PA and find a deer for him.
[00:40:36] Speaker C: One of the commissioners. Yep.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: One of the commissioner.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: And we lost that phone call. We don't have it recorded.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Yeah. It was before we started using open phone and everything was recorded. I thought it was on Google somewhere because I used to use a Google number.
[00:40:49] Speaker C: Yeah. So think about that.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: That is hilarious.
[00:40:51] Speaker C: If that would have also been produced in this case. Hey, PA Game Commission. One of your commissioners was calling Drone Deer Recovery to have you come. Have them come out and personally find.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: A DE everywhere for that.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Oh, dude. Kevin. My brain would not stop for days trying to figure out where to find this thing.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: That would be the most highly.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: But it ended up being on my Google number. When I first started this whole thing, it was not organized like it is now, but I. I had my number there, and then I ported it over to open for. And then open.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Again and again and lost it.
[00:41:25] Speaker C: So it gets even juicier with this phone call. So they held up, like, the envelope on, like, the.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: It's here, but we don't know how to play. We don't know how to play the play button. It's complicated. It's this whole thing. We can't figure it out.
[00:41:37] Speaker C: So the judge ended up dismissing. Dismissing the case on the.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: On the merits of not even without playing it.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: Right.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: Just saying that they have it because it's.
[00:41:46] Speaker C: It was possible exculpatory evidence, and they withheld it. They had. They did not produce it.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: So. So that we're not.
[00:41:52] Speaker C: That's a. It's a Brady Law violation, by the way.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: I don't know what that is.
[00:41:56] Speaker C: They have to produce potential exculpatory evidence without it being requested. That's really. Yeah. So they committed a Brady Law violation. That is the reason the. The judge dismissed the case.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Geez.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: So. But. But it's like it gets dismissed because. Because of that violation, not because you guys actually said that this is. Okay. What the heck?
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Are you.
[00:42:19] Speaker C: Not based on merit?
[00:42:19] Speaker B: Not based on merit. Right. And that. That is a little unfortunate in this case.
[00:42:23] Speaker C: Right?
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Yep.
[00:42:24] Speaker C: Right.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: But they did say through this all, that it definitely. You can't use a drone to find a carcass.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: Correct. That's. They conveniently, once they were forced to. To release the phone call, they said, well, this person made a mistake in our position. Is that.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Josh. What happens if I'm flying my drone and I'm just looking at my land for trespassers and I see a carcass?
[00:42:50] Speaker C: I don't know.
We're getting into some gray area there.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: I'm just trying to figure out, like, all you thermal drone pilots out there, you see a carcass, you better quickly, like, go the other direction because.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's good.
[00:43:05] Speaker C: And then I'll try. I mean, there is legislation that is.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Why hasn't that bill moved forward faster? Like Senator Coleman? I thought he did a really good job. There was a Couple of things in there that I wish he wouldn't have put in there. Hopefully you can rewrite some. If Coleman, if you're listening to this, like, let's chat. But why hasn't it moved forward?
[00:43:21] Speaker C: I mean, we need to get, like, groundswell support. So, I mean, Coleman has introduced it. He's going to reintroduce it, if he has not already. We need people in PA to reach out to their representatives, make them aware of this. This bill, make them aware of what's good about the bill, why the bill should be passed. It makes what's a gray area and very unclear, very clear, Right? Yep. So even if you're not a huge advocate of drones for recovery, it makes what's legal and not legal very clear, and it makes it so that there's no gray area.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: But my thing is, when Senator Coleman introduced the bill, you know that other senators heard about it, Right. Well, why not get on board? It's like the senators in Indiana. There were two outdoorsmen.
One was a serious hunter and another was like a friend that also does hunting a little bit. But they were able to just, like, bill, introduce, boom, get it passed through literally in like, three or four months.
[00:44:16] Speaker C: It's challenging because of the way that. I mean, let's be honest, everything's political these days. Right. So the way that one party controls the House of Representatives, another party controls the Senate, even in the state of Pennsylvania. So that makes it a little bit difficult.
[00:44:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:44:31] Speaker C: But I mean, to me, this isn't even a political issue. I mean, it's so clear, like, this.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Is beneficial, but it's hard for things not to be.
[00:44:39] Speaker C: Not to get politicized. Right.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Is it the official position of the Game Commission that you are not allowed to recover a carcass on foot after dark?
[00:44:47] Speaker C: That is something that came up in my case. And they went so far like that was. They were trying to use that to see that my case through and say, oh, well, no matter what he did, it was after dark, so can't do it. He can't do it, so he's guilty no matter what. That was their whole approach and.
[00:45:02] Speaker B: Right. Is that it's outside of hunting hours. Right, Right. So you could use that same law to say you can't do it during a Sunday.
[00:45:09] Speaker C: Right.
[00:45:10] Speaker A: No, no, Kevin, they're sticking with that because.
[00:45:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: That is now officially.
[00:45:15] Speaker A: Do you know what they want you to do, ke7 they want you to call. They want you to call the Game Commission to ask permission to go track your deer.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: So if I shoot them Right before sundown.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: So, you know, cutoff time is 5:30. You shot the deer at 5:25. It's now 5:31. And you were tracking. Stop where you're at. Call the Game Commission, because it's 5:31 now, you need their permission to continue tracking.
[00:45:39] Speaker C: How many places, like, in the PA Hills, do you not have cell service?
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Good luck with that.
[00:45:43] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
And also, like, okay, so now, like, in archery season, all your deer movement is early or late, right?
[00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:50] Speaker C: I mean, you're.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: What's the point of this?
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Are they staffing up to get people like. Yeah. The phone calls?
[00:45:56] Speaker C: I have no idea.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: But let's just be realistic, folks. Like, nobody is, like, calling for permission to go track their, you know, blood trail. I mean, Game Commission, it's absolutely ridiculous. But that they're trying to set something.
It's crazy that this was never talked about.
[00:46:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Until drone deer recovery was.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: And that law is not a new one.
[00:46:17] Speaker C: No, they're. They're interpreting the same law that's been on the books for a decade. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: For a long time.
[00:46:23] Speaker C: They've just changed their interpretation of what it means.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: And they did it specifically in context of your case, correct?
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: And we don't have reason to believe they would make that change if it had not been for your case. And so that actually is going to affect every hunter in Pennsylvania this upcoming season negatively, correct?
[00:46:40] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Do most hunters know that the new position is you cannot, like, recover a carcass after dark? Is that being communicated, or is that more of, like, the theoretical, technical position that we're not going to really tell people about or enforce?
[00:46:52] Speaker C: I mean, not unless they've been following my case and.
[00:46:54] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, and there's definitely guys talking about it. I've heard podcasts on it. I've seen news articles written about, like, needing to call your Game Commission unless you're following, like, news type stuff. No, you're not going to know that that's what the Game Commission wants you to do.
[00:47:10] Speaker C: Right, Right. Yeah.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: It's our biggest thing is, and what we really need to figure out is how to move this bill forward that Coleman introduced, because that literally will fix this. This gray.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: It will. I agree. What I care probably even more about than that bill, just because it pisses me off, is what are you going to do about that culture of. Honestly, of corruption?
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Well, he can't say that, Kevin. I mean, they're going to get prepped. I mean, the Game Commission obviously clearly listens to, you know, the drone on Podcast and if Josh is getting, getting beefed up, ready to come after him, they're, they're going to build.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: Is it the end of the story?
[00:47:49] Speaker C: I don't, I'm not sure yet. It's. That's open for debate.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Is there anything that the community or hunters in Pennsylvania can do to support building more accountability into the Game Commission so that it actually serves the people instead of whatever stuff is going on now?
[00:48:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there needs to be a real look in the mirror as to like, for example, how do you hold your, like in the case of the Game Commission, how do you hold yourself accountable to not do this kind of stuff again? Right. Like with some of the state, like state police. Right. They have an internal affairs unit or they have like an investigative unit that, that will investigate misconduct within their organization. It's independent of them, but it oversees them. What kind of oversight mechanism does the Game Commission.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: I, I would venture that the official position of the Game Commission is that no, nothing inappropriate happened to begin with. There's nothing worth even like doing an investigation on.
[00:48:47] Speaker C: Right. Well. And that's the problem. Right?
[00:48:49] Speaker B: That is a problem. That's the problem. What do we do about that problem?
[00:48:52] Speaker A: Well, you got to fight it out if you're willing to.
[00:48:56] Speaker C: World peace is next.
But no. So getting back to that call record. So in court, they produced that record. So the next day, the 7th. So that was on the 16th of January of 25. On the 17th, since we knew they produced that record, we submitted another right to no request because they had no way of denying that that record didn't exist anymore. We submitted another right to no request. Guess what?
[00:49:21] Speaker B: They're number three.
[00:49:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Guess what their response was.
[00:49:24] Speaker B: Oh, man. We found it, but it's corrupted and we can't play it.
[00:49:27] Speaker C: It's a 911 or it's a. An emergency dispatch number. And because it could have personal identifying information, we are not obligated to disclose it.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: It's.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Oh, my.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Yeah, so they said it's a 911 call. Well, or it's under.
[00:49:42] Speaker C: It's under the.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Falls under.
[00:49:44] Speaker C: It falls under the. Because it's an emergency dispatch number.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: We found it. But there's personal identifying.
[00:49:49] Speaker C: Well, there could be.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: There could be. Of this Josh guy who's requesting it.
[00:49:52] Speaker C: Meanwhile, we know what's on that call. There is no emergency dispatch related information. It was a call asking about the legality of drone use.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: But you don't have a recording of that on your side.
[00:50:03] Speaker C: Well, we didn't have it, but then we appealed that. That rejection. And so then that appeal would have had to be seen in front of. In front of a judge in court a little bit before they would have had to.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: Before they go to court.
[00:50:17] Speaker C: Before they would have had to explain what.
[00:50:18] Speaker B: And they'll be embarrassed.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Before they had to explain why they're withholding this record, they responded and said that. Or they were willing to give us the phone call in exchange for withdrawing the appeal.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. And then, then, and then it's over.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Yeah, but you said no to that.
[00:50:34] Speaker C: No, no, we did because we got the phone call and that's exactly how we got the phone call.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: So we have the phone call.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:50:41] Speaker C: And it says. Exactly.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: But by withdrawing the appeal, they, they.
[00:50:44] Speaker C: No longer had to.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: They no longer have any oversight or like, there's, there's no.
[00:50:48] Speaker C: Well, they didn't have to explain to a judge.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah, they didn't.
There was no accountability at that point. Yeah, that. That's why he keeps going back to that. Kevin.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: So just doing that, that cost you X amount of dollars in lawyer, in attorney fees. It's like everything they do to postpone it is just more and more money that you got to spend on defending yourself.
[00:51:05] Speaker C: I think more, more than the. I mean, obviously it has monetary costs. Right. But I think the time and subsequent, like just. I mean, nobody wants to be in a legal. Exactly.
[00:51:17] Speaker A: It's.
[00:51:18] Speaker C: It's draining.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's absolutely. I was going to say it's exhausting. Like, you think about this. It's in the back of your mind, I would like to move on from the legal thing, unless you want to add. Add something to it.
[00:51:27] Speaker B: Any juicy tidbits you need to add in there or. We did we covered at all?
[00:51:30] Speaker C: No, I think we.
[00:51:32] Speaker A: We've covered quite. I feel. Feel bad for you, but I'm glad you did it because I think it was important. Were you doing deer recoveries during the 13 months that you were going through this process?
[00:51:47] Speaker C: Yes, but not. Not in pa. Why not in PA Because I did not want to be set up and go through that again.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: So there's ways of doing it. Right?
[00:51:56] Speaker C: What's that?
[00:51:57] Speaker A: There's. There's way of not getting set up because you can legally fly your thermal drone in Pennsylvania.
[00:52:04] Speaker C: Yes, they do not have. Yeah, I'm following you. I'm following you.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: So you did deer recoveries in other states?
[00:52:11] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: How many did you do last year?
[00:52:13] Speaker C: I did about 35, I think, something like that.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: And you did that all with the M350?
[00:52:19] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: Yeah. What camera do you have on there?
[00:52:22] Speaker C: It's the M20T, I think.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: Okay. Do you like that better than the 30t to do deer recoveries?
[00:52:29] Speaker C: I mean, they're very similar.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: Very similar.
[00:52:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: I do, however, I do like the spotlight on the 350. Yeah, that thing is bright.
[00:52:37] Speaker A: Very bright.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that. The M4T, the spotlight is bright for what it is, and then it has an IR light as well. It's pretty impressive. Like, it's not something that you want to use every time, but it's something that if you need to go incognito, you could do it.
[00:52:52] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So how many deer have you found in since you started doing deer recovery? Although they really screwed you that. That one year, like, taking your drone that.
[00:53:01] Speaker C: So that first year before they seized the drone, I did 62 recoveries.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Oh, geez. You were ripping.
[00:53:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: The thing is, there's a lot of sportsmen in Pennsylvania that can use this service, actually help them find deer.
[00:53:14] Speaker C: Right, exactly.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: And it's so stupid that they're taking it away from the sportsman that they cannot go find a deer that is dead.
[00:53:20] Speaker C: Right. I mean, it should be another tool that you have available. I mean, there's really. I mean, obviously, any good thing can be abused, right?
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:29] Speaker C: But to prevent something good based off of a small percentage or based off the fear of abuse.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:36] Speaker C: It's not a good way to approach.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: It's cool that you bring that up, because the other day, I got my hands on the fastest spray drone in the United States. I mean, it is shocking. And what's the first thing that I started to think about? It's like, oh, crap. Like, this could be bad.
[00:53:52] Speaker C: Right?
[00:53:52] Speaker A: Like, in the wrong hands. But, yeah, it can also be great in the right hands.
[00:53:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: But I just. I think we tend to go that way. Right away is thinking about all the.
[00:54:03] Speaker C: Bad stuff, like the fear of the unknown.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: I'm just looking at some data here that Pennsylvania has a higher harvest double than what Ohio does. Like, the amount of hunting.
[00:54:16] Speaker A: There's a lot of hunting. And the thing is, Pennsylvania doesn't just have whitetail. They have elk. They have bear. They have whitetail. They have other species that we don't have. That's why Pennsylvania, they have the Appalachian Mountains going through there. This. They need it.
[00:54:31] Speaker C: There is a lot of. And I don't mean everything to be perceived as bashing the Game Commission in. In this podcast, but there is a lot of public land by way of the Game Commission in pa. So there's a lot of public area, too, so.
[00:54:43] Speaker A: I mean, because the Game Commission bought it with their oil and gas money.
[00:54:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: They make millions of dollars off of their leases. Good for them.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: Thanks for coming on, sharing your story. I think what it leaves me with, Phil and Mike is this whole thing. It's sad how precedent for an entire state. Again, this is just my opinion. Seems like it may be formed not in what's the best. In the best interest of a Pennsylvania hunter, but by a very small scale, you know, possible other.
I don't want to say vendetta, but, you know, by PR against one person.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:19] Speaker B: And now that has, like, statewide implications. How messed up is that?
[00:55:22] Speaker A: I just can't.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: I can't get over that.
[00:55:24] Speaker A: Pretty messed up. Yeah. Anything else? Josh, you shot a turkey before you got here. That's pretty cool.
[00:55:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:30] Speaker A: So you're pretty serious hunter, you would say.
[00:55:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: So you hunt it and then got into thermal drones for some reason. Originally, I was thinking you're more into the tech side of it, because there are a bunch of people that do drone deer recovery that aren't hunters.
[00:55:43] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:55:44] Speaker A: But that's not the case with you.
[00:55:45] Speaker C: No, I mean, I just. I was intrigued by, like. All right, so I'm. I'm colorblind. Right?
[00:55:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:55:51] Speaker B: No, wait, I remember that.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: I'm red, green. Colorblind.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:54] Speaker C: Okay. So blood trailing for me is hard. Right. So I was intrigued by, like, hey, like, this is really cool. Like, a great way that you can help people find interesting. But, I mean, that wasn't. I mean, obviously, that was the only thing I, like, I'm techie into things. But having, like, the. The hunting background, too, has definitely helped because, I mean, you. There's a lot of things that you can put together. Like, I mean, obviously, like, herd analysis are a lot of fun. Doing that for people and seeing the joy on the face of people when you. When you do that. And also, I mean, recover finding deer that guy shot and otherwise wouldn't have found. I mean, there's. I've felt that empty feeling before as a hunter and being able to help somebody in that same situation is. I mean, it's. It's really rewarding.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. You can't really explain it unless you do it right.
[00:56:41] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: But I would tell people, if they're wanting to get into doing deer recovery, don't do it for the money.
[00:56:46] Speaker C: Right.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Like, do it first because you want to help, and then the money will come.
[00:56:50] Speaker B: I just so curious. What palette do you fly in if you're colorblind.
[00:56:55] Speaker C: Believe it or not, I do fly in the tent. The tent.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: Red hot.
[00:56:59] Speaker C: Red hot.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Tint?
[00:57:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: But you can't see red.
[00:57:03] Speaker C: Like, red, green. I can't differentiate. I can see. I can see it, but I can't differentiate. If it was green, red palette, I'd be. I'd be lost. Yeah, I couldn't do it.
[00:57:12] Speaker A: So what color is that?
[00:57:13] Speaker C: That's green. How do you know that if they're not together? Oh, if they're not together, I can see them. But if. If, like, they're together.
Okay, you're gonna test me here.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: I. I think it's pretty neat. How. And how. How did you find out that you.
[00:57:28] Speaker C: Were at the eye doctor? They gave me, like, so they take, like, a little picture with, like, dots in it and there's a number, but it's in red.
[00:57:36] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:57:37] Speaker C: It's in red dots and the rest are green. So they're like, what number is this? Yeah, Like, I don't know. I can't. I don't see a number.
[00:57:43] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So when we go get our class through medical for our remote pilots license to fly agricultural drones, yet you have to do that stuff.
[00:57:51] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: Okay.
Interesting flies. Intent. I feel personally myself that's the best color to fly in. But they're all good. Like, guys fly in white hot, black hot, it doesn't matter. It's just what you train yourself to, right?
[00:58:07] Speaker C: Yeah. You get used to it.
[00:58:08] Speaker A: Cool.
