Is Drone Deer Recovery Legal in Illinois? Full Court Case Breakdown | The DroneOn Show Ep 49

[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, guys, welcome back to the Drone on Show. I'm Mike. [00:00:02] Speaker B: And I'm Kevin. [00:00:03] Speaker A: In this week's episode, we get to sit down with the pilot in Illinois that got a citation as well as his attorney who fought this case and got it thrown out. [00:00:11] Speaker B: It was not thrown out on a technicality. It was thrown out actually, because the statute and the guidance that the state is issuing is totally different. You do not want to miss this if you're in Illinois. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Yeah. A lot of details into this one. Let's get into it. All right. Yeah, so we're just going to roll with it because we were already rolling with it because it's going to be a juicy one. I can tell already. It', Gosh, we got to save some of this for the podcast. If you want to introduce yourself and then you introduce yourself, my name is [00:00:39] Speaker C: Ed Fanning and I'm an attorney here in Illinois. I just have a general practice. I do focus a lot on criminal law, but for some ungodly reason, people think I know what I'm doing when it comes to conservation violations. So I get a lot of conservation. And certainly. Yeah, you can use this on your podcast. [00:00:58] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:00:59] Speaker D: I'm Jeremy Shelton. I operate a drone business here in Illinois, and Ed is my attorney. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Cool. And guys, Jeremy is one of the original drone deer recovery operators from Illinois. If you guys have been following along with drone deer recovery when the channel first started is we, me and Kevin came up with this business structure that we did away with quickly because we figured out that having certified drone deer recovery operators in states wasn't the best practice because there was way too much demand in each state. And I also didn't want to get sued by all the states that were threatening to sue me, like Illinois, New York, you name the state. And so we did away with that. But Jeremy is one of the original drone deer recovery operators. So I appreciate that. I appreciate you saying no state. I believe you're wrong. And you had. You had already done your homework. Did you had you spoke to your attorney at that time when you were starting a. Yeah, before we started the [00:02:04] Speaker D: business, we'd spoke to him and you know, the state was saying one thing, that this was going to be illegal and the way the laws wrote doesn't quite back what they're saying, I guess. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So you had him on a retainer from the get go when you started your business? [00:02:21] Speaker D: Yeah, I believe so. [00:02:22] Speaker C: Correct. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Huh. That's cool. [00:02:24] Speaker B: So the state of Illinois does not like to lose is what you were saying earlier. [00:02:29] Speaker C: That's correct. They do not like to lose. [00:02:32] Speaker B: The conservation doesn't like to lose. [00:02:35] Speaker C: No, they, they, they have a hard time accepting defeat or that they're wrong even in their own cases. Yeah. And, and one of the things specifically in this case, it didn't come out was I had interviewed a couple of these officers in dealing with the variation of the statute in comparison to use of motor vehicles or side by sides and how it would be legal to go look for a deer with that. And they confirmed that it was legal that you could do that as long as your gun was uncaged. I mean, cased and unloaded. I even had my secretary sit in on those conversations so that if they would curb their testimony to fit their needs, that she could impeach them and said, that's not what you said previously. So we were prepared to present that, but the court said, look, this is going to be a question of law. Neither the conservation Ed or you or anybody's going to tell me what the law is. You can present this law. And that's my job, is to decide what's legal and what's not legal. So, but, so that's the point. They don't like to lose. And if they think they're going to lose, they're going to curb their testimony somewhat. And that's disturbing that they would do that to a lot of officers. Why run your reputation with the law and the courts over a small case? If you mess up, lose the case, go out and strive again, you know. [00:03:50] Speaker A: So are you a deer hunter yourself? Like you must. [00:03:54] Speaker C: Well, I am a deer hunter. I, I try. I, I have a waterfowl hunting club, we have a outfitter where we do some outfitting for deer and turkey. And of course, I'm an avid hunter. And I do think that that probably gives me a unique perspective as an attorney when it comes to dealing with conservation laws, because I understand how, how they're implemented and how the impact of that is on the hunters. [00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So, okay, we're going to bounce back and forth between your thermal drone business and then also the legal side, because the guys that are tuning in, they're interested in probably both of it. Or, you know, from a business standpoint. Right. You're operating a drone business in the state of Illinois, and they, they say you can't do that, but you've been very successful doing it. How? How, if the state was telling you you can't do it, did you advertise [00:04:43] Speaker D: like I've advertised on your website? And that's where 98% of my business probably comes from is calls off your site. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Okay. That's just basically that you didn't go make a bunch of Facebook posts that you're doing it, huh? [00:04:58] Speaker D: No. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:00] Speaker B: And you've been doing it for how many years now? [00:05:02] Speaker D: Three seasons. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Three seasons. And you fly the M30T? [00:05:06] Speaker D: Yep. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Still a good drone. Still working. [00:05:08] Speaker D: Still working, yeah. Got the original and now I got another one. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:05:14] Speaker A: Approximately how many deer do you find or look for? [00:05:17] Speaker D: 40 a season. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Okay. Do you pick and choose what you're going after or do you do every. [00:05:23] Speaker D: I'll take every call I can, I can make. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:26] Speaker D: Yep. Now, I will say that none of my business has been outfitters or guides. And that's, you know, that we have a lot of those in this area. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Why do you think that is? [00:05:37] Speaker D: I think with the way DNR stance is. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So the outfitters are like not getting. [00:05:43] Speaker D: Not going to touch. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:05:47] Speaker D: If that. If the outfitters would, you know, have business with me, I. I don't think I'd ever keep up. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's so many of them. [00:05:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:05:59] Speaker B: So for people that aren't familiar with Illinois. Right. [00:06:01] Speaker A: We. [00:06:01] Speaker B: We made some content a while back kind of poking fun at the requirement of using every reasonable. What's the word? [00:06:08] Speaker D: The want and waste law. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Wants and waste, and at the same time not being able to use the most, like one of the safest, non invasive tools that we have for this. So we, We've made content about that. But could you catch up or bring people up to speed who aren't familiar with the law of Illinois? Like, what does the handbook say? And then what research did you do prior to kind of launching your business? [00:06:34] Speaker D: Well, what the. Maybe Ed could take that a little bit on what the handbook says and what the laws are. I mean, that's. Those are different. Right? I'm not misquoting something here, am I? [00:06:48] Speaker C: No. The digest says you cannot use a drone in any manner. The problem is the digest is not the law. That's just what conservation drew up like a brochure. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:58] Speaker C: So. [00:06:59] Speaker B: So if it's every. Everything that is in the digest should be based in a law or it should be an application of a statute or something like that. [00:07:07] Speaker C: Correct. The problem is conservation, in my opinion, misapplies that and misinterprets that definition of what the statute actually reads. And then they. They take the statute and say that its application is a complete ban on the use of drones. And it depends on the perspectives. There are limits that you can put in the drones. And you have to be very careful and you have to use it the way Jeremy has been very specific in it, because what he's doing is more of a recovery or a searching. And that's the key factor, that searching for a deer is not illegal. But if you use a drone, beyond that, it will fit possibly the definitions that make you in violation of the statute. And we can go through those things and those definitions later whenever you're ready to. [00:07:57] Speaker D: And really, that's where this falls, is your interpretation of the definitions that they're giving for hunting. I've had a warden tell me that you're hunting from the time you start until you put your tag on the animal. Well, I don't believe that that's the case. They put in the book a very specific time of hunting. It's 30 minutes prior to 30 minutes after. So how you can be hunting out there with a flashlight at 10 o'. Clock. [00:08:23] Speaker A: I'm gonna bring up an interesting one. So the state of West Virginia, they do allow thermal drone recovery, but they do not allow the transport of wildlife with a drone. And I'm like, at what point is it no longer wildlife? So if the deer is dead or the bear is dead and it's quartered up, is it still wildlife? And their stance is, yes, it's still wildlife. And so what. What point is it not wildlife? [00:08:52] Speaker C: That's wild. [00:08:53] Speaker B: If it's the deer jerky from last year. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:55] Speaker B: That you have in your pocket. [00:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. So if you take some jerky right on Jack Link's bag, put it in there and you fly it with a drone, you are illegally transporting wildlife is what they're telling me. What pisses me off about the most of this, these stances, is it's just somebody with authority telling you can't do these things without giving us a good stance on, like Ed brings up is why. [00:09:20] Speaker C: Right. Well, getting back to your wildlife, the thing is, is you'll notice, like, especially because I do a lot of federal defense as well. It's. It'll say, like, wildlife or parts thereof. Okay. So they still classify that as parts of the wildlife. It's probably, to be honest with you, when is it no longer wildlife? When you digest it. Okay. To be honest with you. But you can't sell a hide. You. You know, because part of the reasons, especially when you get into the Lacey act on the federal thing, and I don't want to get into that necessarily, but the. The Lacey act is to mainly was it was Original creation was to prevent these commercialization of wildlife, selling parts, you know, like. Yeah, rhino horn. Yeah, you're going out and back in the old days, they used to go out and just harvest these ducks. They go out with cannons, literally cannons in these canoes and just swat them on the water. And then they would harvest hundreds and ducks and they would sell all their parts and pieces in the meats. So, so, so that definition is. It's still considered wildlife. And they go after these individuals even after they're taken and harvested. [00:10:21] Speaker B: So. [00:10:22] Speaker A: No, I'm glad. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm like. I'm like, doggone it. Like, that thing is not wildlife when it's quartered up and it's put into a hamburger. Like, I can't transport the hamburger if [00:10:33] Speaker C: it's like deer burger if it's illegal. [00:10:36] Speaker A: No, I'm just saying that they say it's a wildlife. It's like that burger looks quite different than this deer standing over here. Anyhow, I think. [00:10:46] Speaker B: I think one of the interesting things though, like, and as we get to hunting season, we have so many questions coming about. This is every state has these different handbooks, guidelines, whatever. And I think one of the main education points that we need to maybe have you speak a little bit on is what can I do as a thermal drone pilot? Or if I want to get into this and I see a handbook that says I can or cannot do something, or like, how do I then follow that back to the actual statute to see what's in the law? And how do I educate myself not just on what the published guidelines are, but what's the law that actually is, you know, would hold up in court? [00:11:21] Speaker C: Well, again, the digest is just a brochure. It's just something to give some aid. And you'll notice if you look at. Actually if you read the digestion, they'll tell you it's not the law. So if they misprint something, they have disclaimers on there so that they know that you know that. Oh, well, you told me I could do this. Well, that's a misprint. Or we told you that. Like, that's one of the reasons why they don't do. In the waterfowl digest in Illinois, they don't give you the shooting times, you know, because it's half hour before sunrise and then to sunset. And so. And before. Well, the sunrise and sunset varies all across the state going east to west. So they used to have time zones for that. Well, then now they don't do that they say, oh, you got to go to the National Weather Bureau Society and figure that out. But so the point is, the digest is just an advisory thing to tell you it's not the law. And all too often at times it's wrong. And so you actually have to look at the statute. The statute is the law. That's the law of our land. And you have to follow the statute. A lot of the statutes, they have definitions of all these terms, because when you're looking at the statute and it talks about, you know, what is hunting? You guys were talking about what is hunting? Well, there's a clear definition here of hunting. And that was one of the things that initially was brought up in Jeremy's case. And I don't want to, you know, go too far, a different direction. You want me to. But in Jeremy's case, when he first they charged him with unlawful hunting of deer by the use or aid of a drone of an aircraft. And, well, so then it brought. Was brought up to the judge, struggled with that. Right off the bat, he said, is this what you're proceeding on? And the state's attorney said, yes, I am. And he said, well, because I'm saying there is a definition of what is hunting. And hunting is you must have a weapon. Yeah, Jeremy did. No one in his party had a weapon on their person, on their vehicle or anything. It was at night, so they didn't have no weapon. And. And then the hunting said, you got to have a dog or a dog. Like, if you're chasing animals with a dog or a bird of prey. Yeah, none of those things were present, and that's the requirement to be hunting. So. But then the state kind of could see that their case was going to go down the toilet real quick if they kind of hung to that position. So, like, well, if you really look at the statute, the section, we're taking a broader approach. And this broader approach, like, well, because it says you cannot take, hunt, pursue, or chase according to the statute. So they said, well, we're talking about these other things. And I brought up to the judge, I said, well, the defendant has a right to know what he's being charged with. But I didn't want to win on a technicality. I wanted to win on the law. Because his case was a question of the law, and it wasn't a question of the facts. We basically stipulated to the facts. We weren't really disputing that we were there or that we didn't. Or that Jeremy didn't do that. I wasn't There, but he. That the. His clients and Jeremy was there, what they were doing. Nobody was disputing the actions that everybody was taking. The. The main issue before the judge was the question of the law. And so. So I kind of let them take that argument a little further and let. Because I knew the judge would pursue that. And then with our evidence that we were presenting on the actual definitions in the statute and in the dictionary, that Jeremy's actions was not a violation of the law. So. So we didn't want to win, even though they did have him wrongfully charged on a technicality, because it wouldn't have the. The value to everybody as far as. As well as Jeremy, some direction from the court as far as what he could do and what he could not. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Jeremy, can you fill us in how the warden show up or how this whole ticketing process go down? [00:15:14] Speaker D: Yeah. A gentleman who lived near where we were searching for a deer saw the lights on the drone. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:21] Speaker D: Called the local game warden in pike county, and that game warden, I believe, told him that it was illegal to do anything involved with a drone. And that game warden. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah, but how'd that neighbor even know what you were doing? Because you could have been looking for a lost cat or something. [00:15:36] Speaker D: I could have been right. [00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:37] Speaker D: But I don't know. Just took it from there. And that game warden was either busy or on vacation. I don't know. So he called, I believe, a county cop from that point, and then he came out, and the county cops. The first person I actually spoke to. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:55] Speaker D: That night. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Okay. So you were still doing the recovery. [00:15:58] Speaker D: We're still looking for the deer. And then he told us that we needed to land the drone and that there'd be some game wardens that wanted to talk to us. So he had a couple game wardens come from the next county over. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:12] Speaker A: And then they. They said, you're. We're giving you a citation and we're going to take your drone. [00:16:17] Speaker D: Yep. They. They asked us some questions, you know, what. What we're doing. And we told them, looking for a deer. And I think one of them. Yeah, one of them tried to accuse us of. Of pushing deer off another farm onto this farm or something. [00:16:28] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:16:29] Speaker D: Just to kind of fire me up, I think. But, yeah, anyway. Yeah. I mean, I. I still don't think we're doing anything wrong. So I told him, you know, exactly what we're doing, and that's when he said that he'd be giving me a ticket. [00:16:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:44] Speaker D: Taking the drone. [00:16:45] Speaker A: I Want to bring people up to speed. When, when was this ticket wrote to you? [00:16:50] Speaker D: November of 24th. 16th November 24th. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Look at that, guys. So we're now in April of 2026. Why did it take this long, Ed, to resolve this? [00:17:04] Speaker C: Well, first we, we tried to go talk to the state. Sometimes you do, you do let cases set for a little bit because it becomes a very hot topic with the prosecutors and everybody at the moment. So sometimes after things cool off, people start thinking with more level heads when it comes. So, and it's not uncommon. They got to exchange discovery and different things. And then you try to negotiate with the state with a disposition of the, of the matter. Because, you know, if there was a violation that we believed that, you know, Jeremy did, then you would try to negotiate an agreed to disposition. Problem here was it wasn't a situation of trying to just negotiate a better deal for Jeremy because we truly believe that he was an innocent person that did not violate the statute. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:52] Speaker C: So the other thing too, to be honest with you, now conservation is never going to want to talk to me after this. Conservation officers, because, you know, they're all [00:17:59] Speaker A: tuning in right now. [00:18:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Because he said earlier they're probably going to set up Jeremy and we'll get into that. But they're just like, oh, gosh, Ed, what are you gonna say? [00:18:08] Speaker C: Do you want me to. [00:18:09] Speaker A: First name or last name? [00:18:12] Speaker C: You call me Ed. Yeah, that's fine. So the problem is then I also told Jeremy, I want time to talk to these officers. And this part wasn't a major factor in the trial itself. The judge did take a good look at the law and interpreting the statute. But to help him out, I wanted to point out there's an inconsistency in the application of the statute by conservation because it basically says, like the statute says, you're not supposed to use a motorized vehicle of any sort and an aircraft. And they say, as defined by the nautical aircraft definition, to hunt, pursue, or take an animal. Okay. And that's the key factor. We can. And I've got some notes to talk about that because we want to, if we get into that, we want to be very technical. So people are very clear as far as what's allowed and what's not. So the difference is, I knew that conservation never. They don't take a hard stance like they do on drones when it comes to motorized vehicles. I can drive my truck to my stand. I can drive my truck to go look for my deer. I can take my side by side and go look for my deer. And. And if you ask them, you. You. So what's the difference between a drone if you're looking for your deer? Okay, but now. And if you ask them, and I've interviewed a few of them, and. And they were all pretty well consistent. There was a couple that could see what I was doing, and because they had some familiarity with this case and they started hedging their testimony or their discussions with me, saying, well, it depends. You know, there's some caveats with that. So one of the things you can't do is you can't. They'd say. They. They'd say, well, Ed, you get. [00:19:49] Speaker D: You can't. [00:19:50] Speaker C: You got to have your gun unloaded and cased. Okay. I'm okay with that. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:55] Speaker C: Or you can leave it there at your stand and. And drive off with your mule and go look for your deer. I. Can I chase the. Can I follow the blood trail? Yes, you can. But. But what happens when you see the dear and he jumps up? You must stop. You no longer can use the mule or the vehicle because now you're chasing. You're pursuing the animal. Okay, okay. And that's what they were saying. See? And then. So you can't pursue the animal with the. With the vehicle. And. And you can't, obviously. Then I said, well, what do I do then? Well, if you have your gun, you have to get off of the vehicle, you have to uncase your gun, you have to load it, and then you can chase or shoot the. The deer. But makes perfectly good sense, and that's how they're applying it. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, but what about drone? Oh, you can't use drone. I can't look. Use drone. Go look for my gear. No. Well. And if you read the statute, that's. That's in that it specifically states. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. [00:20:56] Speaker C: There's no debt. There's no distinction factor or harder criteria for drones. There's. There's no difference. So you. You can't. They can't make up additional rules for drones. If. If the drones had a different section, had additional rules, that would be different, but there's no distinguishing factors in that. So I was trying to make a point of that, and that's what I was trying to do. So I was interviewing these officers and locking them in. I did have my secretary present on to listen in those conversations. So if they would start hedging their testimony when open court, I subpoenaed various ones at this trial if I needed them, and then if they would curb their testimony or change Their testimony. Then I was going to use her testimony because she kept notes of what they had stated to impeach them, to say, judge, they're not telling the truth. That's not what they said then. But fortunately, we won the case outright and didn't even have to get into that distinguishing factor with the court. [00:21:52] Speaker A: So what's this going to do for the state of Illinois and all the many hunters and the enthusiasts that want to use thermal drones to help hunters recover lost deer? Does this set precedents? [00:22:05] Speaker C: Well, I think it is. It can be persuasive to other judges, but the. The. It's not. It's not precedent. It's not legal precedence that's binding on throughout the state because it's not an appellate court decision. It's just one circuit judge taking that and every facts. They could argue that the facts are different in this particular case. And that's where people that are using drone have got to be very specific in how they use those drones. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:30] Speaker C: Like, you can't have weapons with you. You can't be chasing the deer. If you see that the deer is alive, you better make sure your clients are aware that you're stopping. [00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Immediately. [00:22:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Yep. And then that way that animal is [00:22:43] Speaker A: not being harassed or chased, which is all common sense. Like, if that's what the stake wants. Right. Like, and. And the statue is. That's about how it's laid out. I totally respect it now, but just [00:22:56] Speaker C: to wrap that up, because it's very important to people to understand is that conservation is very upset by this judge's decision. And they said they are not going to acknowledge it. They are not going to recognize it. They are going to prosecute you. They are going to seize your drone. And they said, let you know. And then they even specifically asked me about Jeremy after the trial because it was very upset, got very loud, and they said, is he going to continue on to do his business? Me being my stubborn self, said, probably more so. [00:23:25] Speaker A: And you can find Jeremy on the drone deer recovery pilot locator map. [00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So. So I'm sure that they're going to be coming. They basically said that they would be enforcing this and to let my client know that they will be seizing his drone if they catch him doing the same type of thing that he was found not guilty of. [00:23:45] Speaker B: And that's like, that's legal. They can. They can do that. If they. If they see it for the same reason that it got like he was proved innocent, they can repeatedly, in the same scenario, they. They can legally seize his drone again. [00:24:00] Speaker C: Well, let's understand, you know, there's a distinguishing factor and sorry, I'm a lawyer, but I turn on key words and stuff. When a person is found not guilty, they're not found innocent. Okay. And so they're not declared innocent. We don't say this is an innocent person. Okay. The judges said, based on his interpretation of the statute and the facts here, this was not a violation of the law. And certainly not. He could not say beyond a reasonable doubt that this was a violation of the law. And any. And this was a very good judge. He's a very judge that. And what I mean, a very good judge in that he, he is a hyper technical judge and he has enough confidence encouraging himself to make tough rulings. He isn't going to just side with the state just because conservation wants him to do it. If he truly believes this is not a violation of law, he would make that ruling and, and he would be a great appellate court judge if he ever takes his career one more level. Because he is a. He analyzes the law. He doesn't side for one side or the other. He follows the law. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker C: And so I, I knew he would. He would. Based on previous experience with him, I knew that he would follow the law. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Huh. Jeremy, does that scare you at all like that? It's. They're telling your attorney that we're basically going to try to get you again. [00:25:20] Speaker D: No, I don't, I don't know. It's going to be a big inconvenience. I'm going to say that. No, they're not going to scare you, scare me or intimidate. And also, what private land, what you do on private land, I mean, you've raised those animals your whole, you know, that animal their whole life. So how they can come in and dictate what you can and can't recover an animal with is, I think just ridiculous. [00:25:46] Speaker B: So for the 2026 season, your people can find you on the drone day recovery map? [00:25:51] Speaker D: I believe so, yes. [00:25:53] Speaker A: As of today, right now. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Could you summarize for our, like for the pilots out there that want to do this in Illinois? I think you kind of started. I don't know if there's more things, but what specifically would you advise a pilot that they need to do or follow or not do in order to be compliant with the statute as it's written? [00:26:12] Speaker A: I kind of, I thought he did definitely don't have a gun. [00:26:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I can make sure it's clear as. Because what you got to do. Let's look at the statute, the specific point of this fact that they're relying everything on this. And if you don't mind me just saying, yeah, it's 520 ILCS, and that's 5/2.33 subsection I. And that's parentheses I. And it says it's unlawful to take, pursue, or intentionally harass. Now see the intentional part of that. Or disturb in any manner any wild birds or mammals by use or aid of any vehicle, conveyance or unmanned aircraft as defined in Illinois's Aeronautics Act. Now, and it goes on to discuss there are exceptions because you can chase your boat with a loaded gun to shoot a wounded duck. Okay? So they, they. The statute goes on to give an exception to that. So what you look at is you gotta, you gotta cut it up into pieces. So the first thing is to take. What does it mean to take? Okay. And then they do have a definition. So then you gotta jump over to the definition of what take is. And you can't hunt. Okay, so then we're going to talk about hunting. Shoot, pursue, kill, destroy, capture, gig it or spirit trap it or ensnare, harass or attempt to do so. So that's the definition of take. And one of the things that conservation reason are coming after this is. This is why it's so important here is they say they're still considering it to be a taking. Well, the judge said it's not a taking. There's nothing in that definition that Jeremy was doing at that point. Okay. So if you look at hunt, hunt has a specific definition. And in that in order to be hunting, you must possess a weapon. Yeah, these did not possess a weapon. [00:27:59] Speaker A: Do these count? [00:28:00] Speaker C: Nope, it's not a weapon. [00:28:05] Speaker A: For the ones that aren't watching on YouTube, I just held up my arm so they. [00:28:11] Speaker C: No, you cannot possess a weapon. You cannot have a dog or a bird of prey. We did not have dogs. He did not have dogs there. He did not have a bird of prey. And there were no weapons. There was no weapons in the vehicles or anywhere in the area. They were only searching by the use of the drone. So, so it was not hunting. Obviously. They didn't shoot it with the drone. It was not loaded with a weapon. So you better not have a gun on your. They didn't pursue it. See, that was the key factor. They're trying to take some the per. The definition of pursuit. And we'll come back to that one just to eliminate the other ones. They didn't use the drone to kill the animal. They didn't use it to destroy the animal. They didn't use it to capture it. They didn't have nets. So don't have nets on your drones that you're going to trap the animal with. Obviously they didn't have a gig or a spear shooting out from the drone. And they didn't ensnare it. They didn't harass it to jump it up and run it onto the other farm or to attempt to do so. And so. So then it really went back down to pursuit with the court. And the court said, what is pursuit? And what was kind of ironic that we won this case even without even putting on any form of evidence ourselves other than the exhibits they've provided in the discovery and our. And the statutes. And we use Miriam's Webster's definitions to close out. But was interesting is the. So when the state got done, the judge said, do they have anything else? And he said, no. They kind of were hesitant because they're thinking like, does he want something else? And then he's like, Mr. Fanning, do you have anything else? I had made a motion for a directed finding in favor of my client based on the close of the state's evidence. And the judge said, do you have anything else? And I just brought him to the definitions of searching. And what is the definition of pursuing? Yeah, and. And it was kind of interesting because I didn't even have to present. The judge said, well, why? I was sitting here. I did the same thing. You're. Mr. Fanning, I said, what's searching? Because everybody testified they were just searching. And then what is the difference between pursuit and. Although the words are similar, they're not totally synonymous. They're not the same. And if you look under the definitions of that searching, it's just more of a passive looking. You're not trying to attempt to chase something or overtake it or capture it. Whereas when you're pursuing something, like you're pursuing a goal, you're working effortly and you're trying to. To accomplish that, to take that. That thing. And same way if you're pursuing an animal, you're chasing that animal, you're trying to move at a more rapid pace to overcome it and capture it and. And kill it or however. And the court said that's totally different than searching. Searching is just you're looking, you're observing something, trying to locate something. But had Jeremy done one more thing, and this is the key factor where you can't do it, is had the deer. Had there been a deer there, they didn't even find the deer. But had there been a deer and the deer got up and was still alive and then it moved and they continued on with the use of the drone. Now you've went beyond searching. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:24] Speaker C: That's the key factor. You are now pursuing that animal. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:29] Speaker C: So the key factor is if you use that. Okay. And this is my interpretation as well as this judge's interpretation. If you take that drone and you no longer. You're no longer searching, you're pursuing that animal, and then you will be in violation of the statute. [00:31:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:31:44] Speaker C: Now, conservation is very upset because they want their own interpretation. Well, if they want their own interpretation, I have no problem with that. Go back to the legislature and change the damn definition of what you want. [00:31:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:54] Speaker C: Do it. Right. [00:31:55] Speaker A: Yeah, But. But then that wouldn't make sense. If they go and tell them you can't use a drone when it's a very viable tool to help recover lost deer, that tags will go on. So that's what is so frustrating to me as a conservation officer. Right. You are doing this because you like wildlife. Well, why wouldn't you want it recovered? Why wouldn't you? [00:32:19] Speaker C: Well, here's their only reasoning. Why I've talked to officers and most of them actually believe that if it's used lawfully, it would be a reasonable attempt to recover a deer. Okay. Most of them believe you should be allowed to do it. The problem is, the higher up, the directives from the Department of Conservation have come down and said, because you got to understand, they are the minions of their bosses. They must do what they're directed to do. So they have been told by their bosses, no, this is our definition of it. This is the way we're interpreting it, and this is how you shall apply the law and issue the citations. So they have no choice. It's not their individual wants to do it. If you get them off the record and you ask them, a few of them say what? You know, do you. Don't you think this is a good idea? I think it's a great idea. And I wish we could take a different stance, but we can't. [00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker C: We're told to do this. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:11] Speaker C: The other thing is their. Their biggest excuse is this. Here's what they fear. People are going to use the drones wrongfully. They're going to use them to pursue the deer. They're going to use them to. To capture, deal deer, to kill deer. Well, you. You can't take that analogy. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker C: Make something illegal just because somebody's going to use it wrong. Well, somebody uses a Knife wrong. They stab somebody. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:35] Speaker C: So we're going to ban knives. It's the same thing with the gun things. Arguments banning guns. Well, people are going to use them wrongfully. I mean, I could stab you with a pencil. [00:33:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:46] Speaker C: People could do wrong things. It doesn't mean you should ban the item. And, and the way the statute is, it's not banned. Yeah, in my opinion, it's not banned. But understand, I. I'm not the law of the land. I'm not the governor. I'm not a little king of Illinois. And I have to get to make. This is my little fiefdom, and I get to make the rules. No, Conservation has said they're going to still come after you and prosecute you if they catch you using a drone. Now, I just told him, I said, well, I just hope you like losing a lot. Yeah. [00:34:18] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Now that you said that, I'm gonna let you plug your. Like, where do the people get a hold of you? Because I'm telling you, there's gonna be guys that are like, okay, I want that guy on my team. So how are they gonna get in touch with you? [00:34:30] Speaker C: Well, you can call Fanning Law office of Hardin Incorporated. Our phone number, 618 5762284. And then talk to the girls, make an appointment. Bring me your problem now. [00:34:42] Speaker A: But again, they have you on a retainer before the season starts. [00:34:45] Speaker C: No, you don't need to do that. Just if you. Once you get a citation or a violation and contact me. So now, now you ask Jeremy, is it going. Is he scared? No. But what's the, what's the worst thing he has to do? That's. That's painful. [00:35:02] Speaker A: Pay you dollars? [00:35:03] Speaker C: Yeah, he has to pay the damn lawyer. And, and that's the problem that most people even, like these hunters that were. There was a hunter that was cited and he pled guilty. [00:35:16] Speaker A: Why? [00:35:17] Speaker C: Because he didn't want to pay the lawyer. And then he's out of state, he has to fly back and forth. He has to come to deal with this thing. And I mean, his father testified. They didn't bring him in. He was available to testify, but they decided they didn't need him. And then the other thing, too. You asked about Jeremy, like, how did the conservation find out? The landowner came in and testified and he saw the drone and he just presumed that they were using it to find a deer. And of course that's, you know, and the conservation comes out and investigates. Now, had. Had Jeremy been looking for a lost dog or a cat? Okay, they Wouldn't give him a citation. [00:35:53] Speaker D: Yeah, I probably could have told the game wardens I was looking for a lost dog. [00:35:57] Speaker A: Okay, okay. [00:35:58] Speaker C: But that would have been a lie. [00:35:59] Speaker D: Right? [00:36:00] Speaker C: So then you've been charged with obstruction justice. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So for the people that are going to do deer recovery, like Jeremy, you're gonna have to have some dollars in your bank to pay the lawyer to fight this. [00:36:13] Speaker C: Correct? I mean, because they're gonna. They have stated they're not gonna. They didn't say after that trial. Oh, we're sorry, Jeremy. We didn't realize that this was legal. Yeah, no, they took a hard stance. They got very upset. They got loud hollering. [00:36:26] Speaker A: Oh, I got a business idea, Kevin. [00:36:29] Speaker B: And so let's do it. What is it? [00:36:31] Speaker A: We'll start a subscription. If you're in Illinois, you just. You buy the drone from us, and then you pay 500 bucks and you get an attorney on your side, and we'll pay up to a certain limit. We might need to cut that one out. Editors. [00:36:44] Speaker B: Well, how many months were you out of a drone? Like, how many months was that drone seized? [00:36:49] Speaker D: November of 24. Till last month. I got it back four days after [00:36:56] Speaker A: Jeremy quickly ordered another one from Drone Day Recovery, I think. [00:36:59] Speaker D: Yeah. That's how stubborn I am. [00:37:01] Speaker B: But they could have technically cited you again and seized the second drone. Like, there's no stopping. They can seize as many. [00:37:07] Speaker D: I believe so. Yep. [00:37:09] Speaker C: Yeah. For every offense. I mean, gosh. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Something a lot of people are going to want to know is what's the ballpark of what I might get into defending with an attorney like yourself, a case like this? [00:37:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I. I don't. I don't. I like to be a lawyer. I don't focus on the money. I let the office manager take the money with that. [00:37:31] Speaker A: What's hourly rate? [00:37:33] Speaker C: My hourly rates right now are $300 an hour. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:36] Speaker C: So. I mean, Jeremy spent quite a bit. I don't know what you. You know what? [00:37:39] Speaker D: She. You better put 10k back if you want to. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:42] Speaker D: Be prepared. [00:37:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's going to eat into your profits. I mean, you're doing 40 calls. I hope you're charging a premium. Like I was in Ohio when I started. I was doing 550 bucks to find your deer that made good money. Well, it's not that anymore. [00:37:57] Speaker C: Ten is to start. And I'm going to tell you why it's 10 to start. [00:38:00] Speaker D: Yes. [00:38:01] Speaker C: We won. Okay, we won at the trial level. What would have been actually better and not in the sense of my pocketbook or and worse for Jeremy in his pocketbook is had he lost and then we went to the appellate court. Because if, if the case goes to the appellate court, which is the fourth district up in Springfield, then then you would have law scholars and that's what they do. They make decisions. They don't care. I mean they care about the facts, but they, but the point is it's not politics to them, it's the law. Does the law say you cannot do this and so those scholars will interpret it. And then had we lost and he was found guilty, and then Jeremy would have had to spend probably another 15 to 20,000. Because when you go up to an appellate court, there's very hyper technical aspects of, of procedures, formats, briefs, the number of briefs you got to present, how you present it, citations, you got to give case law, statutes and lay it all out for them so that they have their own law clerks to prepare it and do it. So there's a lot of time and effort. You actually go up there and do oral arguments on your case just like they were talking about the United States Supreme Court hearing arguments and stuff like that. When we do that in appellate court, so then convincing them that it's not a violation of the law, then had they come down with a ruling, then it would be precedent and conservation would not necessarily be able to issue those citations again. [00:39:29] Speaker A: So how, how can we make that a thing? [00:39:33] Speaker C: Well, unfortunately, somebody has to be found guilty. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:37] Speaker D: And then appeal it. [00:39:38] Speaker C: And then you have to appeal it. So in that case. [00:39:40] Speaker A: But you better have all your ducks in a row because if for some reason there was a weapon present, throw that out. The deer got up and walked and the drone flew five feet more and went after the deer. Throw that out. You better, it better be right. [00:40:00] Speaker B: But what I would say is, and for conservation is, is if there is someone in Illinois that you conservation charge, you know that, or seize your drone and give a citation and it's not actually illegal by the statute. And it's the same situation as you, Jeremy, where you were abiding within the law. Then I think drone deer recovery gets behind it. And if there's a guilty pledge, I think we take it all the way up to appellate. I mean it's like a no brainer. [00:40:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Hey, so if you're the CEO, I'm [00:40:31] Speaker B: just saying if you're going to come after somebody who's innocent by the statute, then I think that is a risk. Like we, we would be very interested in. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Supporting a hunter that is doing it by the Book and getting that precedent. [00:40:45] Speaker C: Well, and not to give Jeremy kudos, but I mean, he was prepared. He did his research, consulted with a couple different attorneys, one of them being me about I remember you telling us that. The other thing is. And when I actually researched, I was like, wow, I think you can use a drone. And of course conservation doesn't. He said, well, conservation isn't great. I said, again, they're not going to just listen to me, so they're going to probably end up citing you at some point. So. But Jeremy knew those parameters from talking to attorneys and getting those things. So he was very strict. He even takes his clients and makes them sign an acknowledgment of what. What we're doing here. I don't want no weapons with us. There's no. No weapons in the vehicles, nothing. And understand this. If we find that that deer is not a dead deer and it is alive, you understand, we are stopping. You've done paid your fee. We're done. Because he doesn't want to be in. Anywhere in the realm to be considered, to be pursuing. So you have to be as strict. And that Jeremy was in order to be successful. And then the last piece of advice, I want to tell people this, and I tell all my clients this. You should never talk to conservation. [00:41:59] Speaker A: I know it's. It's hard to get permission. It's almost easier to get, well, stopped or slightest. [00:42:04] Speaker B: You just don't talk, don't say anything. [00:42:05] Speaker A: Oh, oh, you're saying like that. [00:42:06] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, don't talk to them. I mean, I don't care. You can talk to them about trying to get their definition, but I mean, if you're being stopped in your sighted, they are not there to help you. Yeah, okay. Okay. We just gave them the other thing too. We gave everybody the roadmap, how to legally use a drone, in my opinion. And even though they're gonna have to fight it in the court systems, the, the. Also we gave the roadmap to the conservation. How to convict you? Well, did the deer get up and run? Did you immediately stop the. Did you stop the drone? Or did you go, yeah, is there any weapons? What would you do if you found [00:42:37] Speaker A: it so crazy that they would still try to pursue it? If it's a truly wounded deer, let's say is, you know, his intestines are hanging out, right? And the deer gets up and walks away. Like, you should probably go try to figure out if you can recover that deer. He's gonna die. He's gonna die. So why be so anal about using a thermal drone to recover the game. [00:43:01] Speaker C: Well, because again, under their definitions it's now pursuit and that's where the difference is to that. [00:43:09] Speaker A: So no common sense plays in fact at all. [00:43:12] Speaker C: None of it plays. Conservation never has common sense when they do that. And I'm just being honest. I mean I've been known and I've had some very high profile cases and what's made me successful is you think, oh, this guy's some genius, some guru when it comes to conservation violations. It's not that I'm a hunter, so I understand the perspective. And conservation does such a terrible job. They just make me look like some kind of genius and it's terrible. I mean I could go facts after facts after facts. I can give you a case. I've had different high profile people and they, they always try to take it beyond what it is. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker C: Because, but understand that's all they got. You know, we're not, they're not taking, chasing serial killers and big things. So they got to make these conservation violations the crime of the century, you know. Oh, I, I took down this person or this famous person. I have to take that. [00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:11] Speaker C: And all too often they take it too far and say it's a violation or this is a felony when it's not. Or they'll say this is a violation when it's not a violation of the law. Well, then I just go in there and look at and say that's not a violation of law. [00:44:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So will you represent people from all over Illinois, outside of Illinois? [00:44:33] Speaker C: Yeah. The problem is for people is unfortunately is an hourly rate. So if I got, and I have, I've had some, I, I do, I go all over the different states and represent individuals and. But the problem is the more, the further it is, it's the costlier. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Because like most, most of the states, their statutes are written very, very similar to that. Even the state of Michigan, very similar. And I know that there's guys that would want to do deer recovery up there, but they just either haven't found the right attorney to represent them or, or to be on. Does go sideways. So I think that there's definitely going to be guys that reach out in those other states that want somebody that is a hunter like yourself and you know, goes to bat tomorrow. So we'll see. [00:45:25] Speaker C: Well, they got to be prepared for the fight. So. [00:45:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Do you see any possibility that in 26, 27, 28 that the conservation here in Illinois will like, are they changing their stance or is there Any possibility that that's. I don't know, like, will that ever change, do you think, in the next few years? [00:45:43] Speaker C: No, I think they'll try. What I think they're going to try to do, if this, especially after this podcast probably gets out and people do this, they're probably going to go back to legislature and try to rewrite the law to specifically outright ban and. And fix the language to where it doesn't even allow it to search it. So. [00:46:02] Speaker A: So, Jeremy, that being said, why would you want this podcast to go out if you know that you might not have a business? [00:46:10] Speaker D: If this was not me in this situation, I would tell my friend, heck yes, you need to do the podcast. You're telling a true story. And that's. That's why I'm here. I'm telling a true story. You know, I'm not. [00:46:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:46:22] Speaker A: So even even though it could potentially shut down your business, you think it's still very valuable for people to know? [00:46:30] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:46:31] Speaker C: Well, there is a chance that conservation, get some common sense about some things and try to pass legislature. There is some bills that they've introduced and they need to pursue them bills and get them passed possibly and regulate them. Because if you remember years ago, we weren't allowed to use a dog. [00:46:48] Speaker A: Okay. [00:46:49] Speaker C: And so you could, you couldn't. If you found. Lost a deer, if you took your lab and helped you find the deer and you weren't chasing it, but you just found your deer, you were. It was illegal. You weren't allowed to use that dog in any manner. And then they did finally get some common sense, and they come in and they said, okay, fine, we'll let you use a dog. And then they restricted it. Like, you got to have a leash. A certain. [00:47:15] Speaker A: So, yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker C: Feet. [00:47:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And how long did it take him to. From the time that people started doing that with dogs until they would have said, okay, it's illegal. [00:47:24] Speaker C: I mean, it probably took decades, to be honest with you. [00:47:26] Speaker D: When I was a kid, it was a big deal. I mean, I remember people were worried that you'd be out there running deer with dogs if they legalize this. And, yeah, it took years, huh? [00:47:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:38] Speaker C: And it's. But it became a big enough business, though. It did become a big enough business that people were training dogs to track deer and find them. And it made logical sense. And then eventually the statute came around. But again, it's not conservation. They don't make the laws. They're not the legislature. It is the. The, you know, legislature. And that's where you get it. If you really want to preserve this, you may want to try to put pressure in your legislatures to put regulations on the use of drones to give everybody rules when. So that way conservation will get off their butts. [00:48:14] Speaker A: Yeah, Jeremy, another thing is we're sharing this podcast. We might start up your own competition, because now there's guys that are like, okay, Jeremy won and I have access to his attorney. I'm going to do the same thing. Are you worried about that? [00:48:28] Speaker D: No, not at all. [00:48:30] Speaker A: That's a good mentality to have because it's. It's. People are going to do it one way or the other. Guys, when I first started, we. We would hide what drone we're using. If you go back and you watch the videos, we blurred the. The DJI emblem on it so you wouldn't know that it's a matrix 30T. Because I was like, I'm gonna be the only deer recovery guy that, you know, has the proper equipment. Well, the truth is, people figure it out. And so, yeah, I think it's cool that you look at it that way. [00:48:57] Speaker D: You know, you still got to put effort in. It ain't the drone that finds the deer. Yeah. Flying it. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. [00:49:04] Speaker D: Oh, and one other thing. We didn't find that deer that night because they took the drone away from me. I, I would have found that deer that night. I just want to get that out there now. [00:49:13] Speaker B: But what is yours success rate? [00:49:15] Speaker A: I like it. [00:49:16] Speaker D: There is one or two deer a year that I don't find. I'm in the 90 success, but I haven't hit 100 yet. [00:49:23] Speaker A: You know, what is your success rate on mortally wounded deer? Meaning deer that actually are dead or are going to be dead? [00:49:35] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, 100. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Yeah, they're. [00:49:38] Speaker D: They're there. If, if, if the hunter doesn't go bump them, you know, they're there. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. I tell people that all the time. Like, if. If it's a flesh wound deer, the deer might be gone, like, out of the area, but then the deer is going to be fine. There's. There's only been. I've done hundreds of them now, but there's only been maybe, maybe a handful. Out of hundreds of deer that I looked at five deer that were dead in the search area. But then some of those. We aren't even sure that they were in the area when I was there, that they would have been outside the search era came back and then maybe died from infection or something. Yeah. When we give those numbers of how successful A thermal drone is if you're a good operator like yourself. I mean, you're going to find it. [00:50:28] Speaker D: You're going to find it if the arrow hit where you think it hit. But, yeah, sometimes they don't. They don't get hit where you think. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I will say something that is very challenging for somebody that's new to thermal drones that you're just getting into. It is learning how to read the thermal image. If you're in a timbered area that has a lot of rocks, boulders, that type of stuff, and the sun just went down, that can be very challenging. I missed one this year. I was like, looking all through this and I was like, guys, I am. I'm not confident because there's a hundred thousand rocks that I need to look at. And if I miss one rock, it might be the deer. And I missed one this year like that where he was in a timbered area that had huge boulders and I had to look at every single one. Yeah. So I don't know if you've had that problem out here in Illinois or not, but I have. [00:51:25] Speaker D: But I think the key is just don't get in a rush. Wait 10 o', clock, midnight or later to get started is what I do. You know, don't rush out there as soon as the sun gets down. [00:51:36] Speaker B: Jeremy, in the couple years you've been doing this, have you ever had a client ask you to do something illegal? Like the thing that the conservation is really scared about, like, you know, stalking a deer, pursuing a deer, finding a deer, scouting for deer? Have you ever had a request like that that you're uncomfortable with? [00:51:53] Speaker D: One time we had a guy wanted to continue on. You know, the deer was still alive and he wanted to continue on, and I was done. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Pulled out. [00:52:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Yep. That waiver you have, is it the drone deer waiver? [00:52:05] Speaker D: Yes. I'm following your guidelines. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:07] Speaker D: And it's. It's the same waiver I got from you guys. Yeah. [00:52:10] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:52:11] Speaker A: That is so cool. [00:52:13] Speaker B: This whole conversation, it reminds me. I mean, it takes me back two years when. Especially in those early days, because the path that we took in Ohio was pretty similar to this. I mean, kind of blaze the path. You read the law, you find an attorney, and, you know, it just. But having people like you, I think that play by the book is so helpful for the industry to kind of mature. Like, you need a couple pioneers that aren't. That aren't afraid and that are like, if you. I remember going to expos and stuff with Mike and people Would come up and. And make jokes about putting a gun on a drone or something. [00:52:50] Speaker A: Just pissed me off. [00:52:51] Speaker B: And Mike is the kind of guy. Yeah, he just, he. He just, he gets really angry about it because it's, you know, like we're all in a position that we're trying to mature an industry. And I remember the conversations that we had two years ago where it was, you know, so much was about what's right for the animal. And it's different than the technical statute and law conversation we're having now. But when it goes to actually create laws, like, that's a really important thing to think about is what's good for the animal, what's ethical. You know, you talk about bumping out animals, you talk about the pain and suffering animals going through, all of that stuff. It's still valid, but it's not. It's. We're not even talking about it now because we're having the legal. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:53:33] Speaker B: But if they go back and they try to, like, outlaw drones specifically, you know, by creating new statutes, that is a conversation we need to have of what actually is good for the animals, what's good for the state. [00:53:45] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, exactly. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Find more. You'll find more deer if you're allowed to use a thermal drone in the recovery of a deer than if you, you know, you're not allowed to do that. [00:53:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you, do you. Do you know how many citations would have been written in the state of Illinois for using a thermal drone? [00:54:05] Speaker C: I wouldn't know that. [00:54:06] Speaker B: There's. [00:54:06] Speaker A: Is there some way we could find that or. [00:54:09] Speaker C: No, you possibly could. You have to do, like, a county by county search. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Okay. [00:54:14] Speaker C: And see how many times they've issued that. I don't imagine that it's going to be a lot. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:54:20] Speaker C: Just because conservation is taking such a strict stance, nobody really wants to step into that endeavor knowing that they're going to be arrested. And these drones are not cheap. Okay. So, yeah, you're going to lose a major asset by a seizure. Even if nothing else, you're going to lose it for a period of time until you can win the case. So. [00:54:42] Speaker A: So I've, I've heard that when conservation takes something, they usually never give it back, but this is not the case. When it's equipment, you have to be [00:54:52] Speaker D: found not guilty to get your stuff back. [00:54:55] Speaker C: Well, what was interesting, too, is this is one of the things the state tried to negotiate with us. They tried to barter his drone back. Hey, if he just pleads guilty, and then they even finally knew when they knew we were going to go to trial. They're like, well, we'll just come up with some odd citation or different charge, and then. But we'll give you the drone back. We'll give you the drone back if you. If you plead guilty. And we're like, no, it's really not about the drone. So, I mean, especially the cost of it. It's tempting. I'm going to lose this valuable asset. Yeah. But now you're going to give it back to me. Well, at least I got my drone back. And then. So some people might be tempted to save that asset and take the bullet, but Jeremy didn't. He's like, no, the issue. [00:55:40] Speaker D: We neither one of us like to lose. So we were. We were good to go. [00:55:45] Speaker A: Did you. Did you know Ed, prior to starting a drone, Dereck, and how. How were you able to find the firm? [00:55:52] Speaker D: I just wanted to find a lawyer that was knowledgeable in the hunting world. [00:55:58] Speaker A: So through Google, you Googled, like, good wildlife lawyer? [00:56:01] Speaker D: I believe so. So something like that. Yeah. Wow. [00:56:04] Speaker A: So he must definitely have some cases out there that Google told you. This is the one. [00:56:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Nice. I have used AI in the past to find really good attorneys, but not for this, but for other things seem to be working cost money. [00:56:18] Speaker D: Well. [00:56:18] Speaker C: And you can't necessarily. You can't credit me necessarily for this case because, you know, I have a saying or somebody else is saying that I just took. Good facts, make a good lawyer look great. You know what I mean? It really was the facts here that won this case. It wasn't. I don't have no special powers. I don't have no special knowledge. Sure. I just have common sense, being a hunter, understanding the application and looking at the statutes. So it wasn't necessarily. And you got to be an attorney. You got to be able to spend the time and do it. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:52] Speaker C: Jeremy had good facts. So if you come to me with bad facts, you're going to lose. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:57] Speaker C: If you come to me and you're chasing a deer, you're pursuing a deer, and you're using that drone within their definitions that they say is illegal, you're going to lose. But if you're using it within their definitions and it's not pursuing it, taking it, hunting it, then you're fine. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:21] Speaker C: And that's the key thing. You can use it to search. That's the key to. Because what. What's your. It's recovery. Yeah, it's a. Recovery. [00:57:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:28] Speaker C: We're not trying to find a live deer, chase a deer, or kill A deer. [00:57:31] Speaker A: There's such a huge opportunity in the state of Illinois to. To have a business like what you're doing, because this is a huge state for whitetail hunting and there's mature bucks here, and people are willing to pay for it. The problem is, is you're gonna have to fight your way through. If you get a citation, that just sucks. If I get a citation, they take my drone and I pay the fine. Do they get to keep the drone? [00:58:01] Speaker C: They do. Because when you. To find. Then you've admitted guilt. Okay. So if you've. If you've done anything, they're allowed to seize an asset that is used in the commission of a crime. So if you use a drone in the commission of a crime, it's contraband. They'll seize it. So they can take your gun. Now, they do have some discretion. Or the prosecutors can also say, yeah, no, I'll agree to do it. And I've had deer that we've been lawfully killed and. And they disagree with me. And they've actually even threatened that. That I got a court order saying the, The, The. The rack will be returned. And then they said, well, we're gonna seize it again as soon as we hand it to your client and give him another ticket. So what I did was I say, I'll personally pick it up. Give me the ticket. But they've never taken me up on giving me the ticket. But so, so they will take your drone, especially if it's used in the commission, and they have a right to seize it if it's on. If it is deemed by the court to be an unlawful act that you [00:59:04] Speaker A: performed, what's the state do with that drone? [00:59:09] Speaker C: They say what's kind of unique is conservation says they have a policy that they don't use drones. I don't know why, but that's what they're saying. They're not going to use it. [00:59:18] Speaker A: They definitely should, because you can find bad guys with it too. [00:59:21] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know what they're doing, but they say they're not. Conservation is not using drones. They're probably worried about the privacy thing. The other thing, though, is because they sees a lot of stuff. They see deer stands, bows, guns and stuff, and they. If you check on conservation every few years, they'll have an auction and they'll sell these things. I haven't seen a drone yet, and [00:59:43] Speaker A: I, I got to keep my eye out there. [00:59:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:45] Speaker A: So maybe find some used drones. [00:59:48] Speaker C: But they sell it. They do have an auction and they sell it. [00:59:51] Speaker A: Huh. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Is Is there any line that a Conservation officer can cross to where they're, you know, harassing or, or, or it, [01:00:05] Speaker C: it has to be a high standard. We don't punish officers for making a mistake. You know, if they do something and, but if it's malicious and they know that it's, you know, they know you're not doing something and they arrest you. And that's why you have state's attorneys. State's attorneys get to review the evidence. They, they just prepare. They, they might arrest you temporarily or give you a citation or seize your assets. But actually, in every county, it's up to the state's attorney to decide whether that case is chargeable. So there are some states attorneys that take my approach and say, I think it's legal as long as they stay in those parameters, and I'm not going to prosecute. So even if Conservation takes your drone and then they issue a citation, they send it up to a state attorney and he says, this is not a violation of the law, he has the authority to throw it out and then return your drone to you. Now, some state attorneys may not have that gumption to, to take that hardest stance with them, but a lot of them will. I mean, and they have a lot of prosecutorial discretion. And even if it's. Even prosecutors in each county even have discretion to not charge crimes that were committed. So give you an example, not give an extreme. Somebody shoots Ed Fanning in the street, and this prosecutor says, he was a no good, dirty scoundrel, he deserved to die. I'm letting him go. So they could not. He could choose to not do that. The only higher power would be the attorney general's office to come in in that state to do it. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Huh. [01:01:41] Speaker C: So. So that would be another avenue. Is that if you're going to conduct a service, check the local stance of your state's attorney on the drones use. [01:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:50] Speaker C: And if he says, I recognize that that is a lawful use and I'm not going to prosecute that, then, you know, you're clear to operate your business in that county. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Oh, call the prosecutor. [01:02:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:01] Speaker A: Oh, I did that with the trespasser guy. That was on my, on my land. I was calling the prosecutor. Hey, there's this guy supposed to show up for court. I didn't even know I could do this. I called the prosecutor and they're like, no, never showed up. I was like, oh, so now he has a warrant for his arrest. Trespasser on my land. Anyhow, didn't know you couldn't call the prosecutor. [01:02:21] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's. It's going to be up to the state's attorney, the boss of that county, not his assistant, and then he makes that policy on what he's going to enforce and what he's not going to enforce. [01:02:32] Speaker A: You know, they should bring up this case when they called their prosecutor. Hey, just wanted to. [01:02:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I wouldn't want to be in front of the judge that ruled on this case again. I wouldn't want to be the officer that gave a citation, knowing that that citation is going to go in front of that judge again. Because he's going to probably get pretty irritated. No, Especially if I've already ruled against you and told you that this is lawful. [01:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:53] Speaker C: And now you present me another case and you're harassing. [01:02:55] Speaker A: Are we willing to share what county that was in there? [01:02:57] Speaker C: It was in Pike County. Now, that was not. [01:02:59] Speaker A: Isn't that the big Buck county of Illinois? [01:03:01] Speaker C: It is the big Buck County. Now, that's not the setting circuit judge. He was a neighboring circuit judge in Calhoun County. [01:03:10] Speaker A: Can we request that judge when you get a citation? [01:03:14] Speaker C: No, he can't. You can. You can bump a judge one time. So you can. You have a right to bump one judge and then get a different judge, but maybe may not be lucky to get him. Just Calhoun doesn't have a lot of cases as much, so they. They farm him out. He asked. He has to go through the whole 8th Circuit, which is about eight counties, and he has to do different work in those areas. So fortunately he was. He had a call and we happened to fall on his call and got that judge of Calhoun Camp. [01:03:47] Speaker A: Nice. What's the biggest bucky you found in Pike County? [01:03:50] Speaker D: 190, 200, probably. Yeah, I see one. I see one big one a year. A 190 year. [01:03:57] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [01:03:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:58] Speaker A: I don't get to see 200-00 all the time now because there's so many deer recovery guys in my area. But when I started there, it was always a 200 at least once a year. I forgot my law. [01:04:10] Speaker D: I mean, I don't. I don't see monsters all the time, though. [01:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:13] Speaker D: Yeah. But I've heard a couple times that one looks just like my deer. Except for mine's a little bigger. No, that's right. [01:04:23] Speaker A: Give me a story of a big deer that you found that was dead, that they completely had given up and you actually, like, you brought back up. Is it a lot of that or is it people like. I. I know it's a decent shot. I just don't want a Chance going in there and bumping them out. [01:04:41] Speaker D: I can't think of one right now, Mike. [01:04:43] Speaker C: Okay. [01:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So for me, when I first started, it was they would first p. Like, try to go find the deer. Then they either they bumped the deer or they lost blood or made it harder for me to find. Now we're almost to the point where they know what the technology can do. They're not sure on the shot. They'll explain the shot to me. I'll, you know, I'll have a bunch of questions for him, and then I'm like, okay, it's not a big hurry to bring the drone out tonight. Let's give that deer some time to expire overnight, and then I'll come find him prior to the sun coming up. So there's more people. Rather than pursuing them right away, Getting on the blood trail is they'll call me. They'll give me all the, you know, the answers to my questions, and then I tell them, hey, you know, this is what we should do. So I wasn't sure if they're doing that with you now, rather than ever even going in, just calling you right away. [01:05:37] Speaker D: Sometimes you get it where they've walked the whole property, and sometimes you get guys that back out and don't even check, you know? Yeah. [01:05:44] Speaker A: What's a cool recovery story that you can think about? Somebody always asks me that. What's one. What's one story that's really been neat that you've helped find a deer for? [01:05:58] Speaker D: There was a older gentleman from out of state that shot a deer, his biggest deer he'd ever shot. And we'd looked for a couple hours, maybe three hours. We looked a while. [01:06:07] Speaker A: Wow. [01:06:08] Speaker D: And I'd pretty much exhausted the area and was almost ready to quit and decided we'd just go back and start at the beginning and run this one more time fast. And we found it. And, yeah, it was like, 100 yards from a camera that had taken the picture of the deer with the arrow in it. And, yeah, he was pumped. He was giving me hugs, and he was just going nuts. [01:06:30] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. So did you fly over the deer the first time? [01:06:33] Speaker D: Missed him the first time. [01:06:34] Speaker A: Why do you think you miss him? [01:06:35] Speaker D: I don't think I was paying attention. I didn't expect the deer to be right there. Yeah, I flew over it before I ever started looking. [01:06:43] Speaker A: I've heard of guys doing recoveries where they launched a drone and the hunter said, it's over here. They start flying that direction, and they look for a long time, and Then they're bringing their drone back, and they just happened to tilt the camera down before they land it and seen the deer not 50 yards behind them before. [01:07:01] Speaker C: Right, right. [01:07:02] Speaker D: That has happened a couple of times. [01:07:04] Speaker A: It's right there. Listening to the hunter of the direction that the deer went is one thing, but it's not always necessarily like that of where the deer will be. [01:07:13] Speaker D: Okay, now I've thought, I have another one. A girl shoots a deer. The deer runs towards her father. They're hunting a couple hundred yards apart. The father hears the animal crash in the leaves, walks over. They can't find the deer. So I come up, we find the deer. He walked within 15ft of it. The deer was right there where he'd heard the crash. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Wow. [01:07:34] Speaker D: And I told him that over the phone. I said, well, if you heard the crash, your deer's right there dead. What time can you be here? Okay, yeah. [01:07:43] Speaker A: Maybe they just wanted to see your cool drone and how it works. Maybe it is pretty neat for people that have never seen it. Ed, have you seen how these thermal drones work personally? Have you ever had to have one? [01:07:54] Speaker C: I have not, no. [01:07:56] Speaker A: You're a pretty good shot. Then you just drop him in the tracks. [01:08:01] Speaker C: I probably should call Jeremy, but then we'd both be arrested. Can't defend myself. But the one point, though, that everybody needs to understand, what you brought up, too, is like you said, you waited till the morning is to give the chance for the deer to expire. [01:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:19] Speaker C: So again, recovery of a dead deer is legal, in my opinion. But if the deer is not dead, you can't pursue him. [01:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:28] Speaker C: Go after him. Because then again, now you fit their definition. And then you've taken a winnable case and make it a non winnable case. [01:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so helpful. I really appreciate you kind of laying out those different elements of what is within and out of bounds of how the statute is written. And I think people find it really useful. Jeremy, what would you say when it comes to running a drone business like the one you have? Like, what does it take to be successful? Or what's for somebody who's on the fence thinking about it, maybe in Illinois, maybe somewhere else. [01:08:59] Speaker D: What? [01:09:00] Speaker B: What? What? [01:09:01] Speaker D: When the phone rings, answer it and take the call. [01:09:03] Speaker B: But not on weekends, right? [01:09:08] Speaker D: All the time? Every day. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:11] Speaker B: So you out, like you're out most weekend, like, most nights? That's probably when you get most of the calls. [01:09:17] Speaker D: Yep. Oh, yeah. [01:09:17] Speaker A: You're married. Yeah. What's your wife think about you being gone a lot? [01:09:22] Speaker D: I think she loves it [01:09:25] Speaker A: she's sitting behind the camera. [01:09:28] Speaker B: Can't wait for deer season. [01:09:29] Speaker D: Yeah, can't wait. [01:09:31] Speaker A: I am curious to know the hunter that you were working for, that you were hired in to look for his deer. What was. Was he in trouble for anything? [01:09:41] Speaker D: I'm glad you brought that up. So the. The person who shot the deer was the son. I think he was maybe 14 or 15. And then his father is the one who called me and hired me to come over and look for this deer. So then the kid ends up being. Wrote the ticket, and me and him never even had spoke to each other. You know, he was just there at the location as we were looking for the deer. But he's the one that shot it earlier that day. [01:10:07] Speaker A: Wait, so he also got a ticket? [01:10:09] Speaker D: The. The kid did? Yes. The shooter. [01:10:11] Speaker C: Yes. We talked about that earlier where. Remember the kid put in pled guilty because he didn't want to fight it. [01:10:17] Speaker D: They were. [01:10:18] Speaker A: I. I must have missed that part. [01:10:20] Speaker C: Yeah, he. Yeah, he pled guilty. And. And now his. His father came in. They actually. The state and it probably hurt their case. Yeah, they actually brought the father in to testify. And then they. They decided not to call the son, even though he was there. And they brought him via Zoom. But. But they. The father said, look, we weren't there to chase this deer. And actually, I don't know if you remember, Jeremy, you test. He testified that that deer ended up being alive. That's why you didn't find it. And because. And they found it the next year, not on cameras, that it was still alive. And he said, but we. We just wanted to make sure that if. If it was dead, that we recovered it. [01:10:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:59] Speaker C: And he. And he said, we weren't there to chase this deer and try to kill it or do anything like that. We just didn't want it to die. And he testified, and it was very. The judge was impressed with this testimony that he didn't want to taint the area that. By walking through it. And he said he has a lot of experience with drones in Georgia where it's legal, and that he's very successful with it. He said it does not bother the deer, does not disturb the deer. They don't run out of the area. He goes, but if you walk through an area, you're going to blow those deer out and run your hunting area for days or weeks. [01:11:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:35] Speaker C: And he said, so I didn't want to do that. And he said, I felt like I had an obligation to not let this be wasted. And. And the judge was pretty impressed with his testimony and found that there was no ill intent or nobody trying to abuse the use of these drones and [01:11:51] Speaker B: but, but he still pled guilty because of the cost of. [01:11:55] Speaker C: Well his son. [01:11:56] Speaker B: His son pled guilty. [01:11:57] Speaker C: Yeah his son pled guilty because they just give you a few hundred dollar fine. [01:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah it's so easy just to be done. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Like he didn't get weapons taken because he didn't have any to be. [01:12:07] Speaker C: Yeah, they had no weapons to seize. [01:12:10] Speaker A: Ah this is confusing because like the one case gets thrown out but the other is guilty. So it's like well you plead guilty, [01:12:18] Speaker C: you know you did. [01:12:18] Speaker B: He tried, didn't even fight it. [01:12:20] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean he wasn't found guilty. You understand the differences. He wasn't found guilty, he pled guilty. So the George judge accepted his admission as guilt. It was a different day. It was probably a year or two before this wasn't right away and so I mean it'd be different if. If we they both went to trial under the same facts and we had two different rulings by a judge or something different and then and they the conservation acknowledged the judge asked him said so the, the so the young boy was. He was lawfully hunting initially and he said yes. And and you believe the deer was taken during lawful hours? Yes. And so he. There was nothing at that point and the only reason this judge said only reason you issued him a citation is because of the use of a drone. But again they charged him with hunting by aid of a drone. [01:13:12] Speaker B: But so had the deer been found it could have been seized or it probably would have been seized. [01:13:19] Speaker C: They would have seized it. Yeah I guarantee they'd seize did probably they wouldn't let you have it because then you're in possession of an unlike. [01:13:26] Speaker A: What about the 190s that you have [01:13:28] Speaker D: found like preservation officer wasn't there. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Yeah I know but like would they try to like figure out where they're at? [01:13:38] Speaker C: Well they're going to probably try to figure out what date he did this so they could charge him if it was in the last three years and if they find if he identifies that 190 deer they're probably going to show up in the that guy's house and knock on the door and take it. [01:13:51] Speaker D: Well there went to business. [01:13:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So yeah trust me I was listening to what he was saying so that if he was going to make any admissions I'm like well you guys are creating a situation. He is going to be charged fairly quickly. [01:14:08] Speaker A: This was good, light hearted but serious. I appreciate you taking the Time sitting down. You're a busy guy. You can be doing many other things. So really, yeah, thank you for sitting down. Thanks, Jeremy, for being on any. Any words of wisdom that you would want to leave the audience with. [01:14:27] Speaker C: Just if you're going to do this, understand they're coming after you. They've made it very clear right now their stance is they're coming after you for the use of a drone. So don't be saying, ed, I thought you said I was innocent. That's my opinion. Again, I'm not the law of the land. They're going to come after you. But I think if you hire a good lawyer, bring up those facts and be very strict and very tight with your use of your drone. So like Jeremy was. So you don't go outside that parameters. Last bit is this is very important in any dealing with conservation or any law enforcement. They are not there to help you when they ask you questions, they are already. They are only wanting to identify the evidence to arrest you. So the. They ask you the time of day, tell them to get a watch. Okay. Literally do not tell them anything. Or please contact my attorney, Ed Fanning. And they all know me very well. [01:15:20] Speaker A: Okay. There you go. I love it. All right, guys, that's all we got. I don't know how to end this thing other than, guys, if you're willing to try it, Illinois is open. There's a lot of deer to be found. And we're going to put Ed's contact info in the description of this video. If you're watching it on YouTube. If you're not watching it on YouTube, go over there to get. Get his contact. But that's all we got. Alrighty, guys, we'll see you guys on the next one. Little plug here at the end, guys. I have to give a shout out to the bank here in Calhoun County. So it's bank of Calhoun County. That's where we're doing this recording. We recorded it here. Thanks so much for letting us use this room. And yeah, that's all we got.